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Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

Nice work. It sounds like part of the CP/Apolyton deal is for Apolyton to upgrade CP's civics with spy revolts.

It's interesting how CP sees us and WPC as being really close, when in reality we actually want to talk to them as little as possible and tiptoe around asking them for anything because of how badly they got screwed (even though it wasn't our fault. Mostly.)

Anyways, that sounds like a fine direction to take with WPC. If we can get them on board, UniversCiv next? I would actually talk with CFC last, so that when we do talk with them, we can lead it off with something like "everybody else in the world agreed to this".
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(July 24th, 2013, 10:05)Zargon Wrote: Nice work. It sounds like part of the CP/Apolyton deal is for Apolyton to upgrade CP's civics with spy revolts.

It's interesting how CP sees us and WPC as being really close, when in reality we actually want to talk to them as little as possible and tiptoe around asking them for anything because of how badly they got screwed (even though it wasn't our fault. Mostly.)

Anyways, that sounds like a fine direction to take with WPC. If we can get them on board, UniversCiv next? I would actually talk with CFC last, so that when we do talk with them, we can lead it off with something like "everybody else in the world agreed to this".

I think I agree on saving CFC til last, or at least getting others on board first. If CFC rejects, we could go back to those who agreed to the deal and see if they're willing to put some teeth on the deal to "convince" CFC to agree to it.

Also yes, I think CivPlayers is going to leech techs off us and then civics off Apolyton pretty soon here. Hard to say for sure.
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Coming in very late, but...

(July 23rd, 2013, 13:46)Gold Ergo Sum Wrote: I disagree. There is no in-game gain for Apolyton to have broached this subject. I think they genuinely believe they are BS and don't want any part of winning that way.

?????

The gain is that they get RB revolted (via proxy) but won't themselves get revolted. What am I missing?

If we're terrified of scaring Apoloyton away from the agreement enough that we're avoiding closing loopholes we should accept that Apolyton almost certainly plans to use said loopholes.

I worry this team, while very skilled, is being extremely one-dimensional when it comes to person-to-person diplo. A team being a jerk is not necessarily of no use to us, and a team being our BFF is not necessarily looking out for our best interest. Our biases about "cheap tactics" or "we don't respect those bad at civ" may very well come back to bite us.
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Apolyton and CivPlayers are currently the only ones who are a danger espionage-wise right now. If CFC doesn't sign and doesn't extend the NAP, all that means is that we can focus our counterespionage on a single target. I'd much rather have that than worry about two more Civs who have spent a ton of EPs on us already.

So, great job Scooter! smile
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw
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(July 24th, 2013, 10:26)sunrise089 Wrote: The gain is that they get RB revolted (via proxy) but won't themselves get revolted. What am I missing?

If we're terrified of scaring Apoloyton away from the agreement enough that we're avoiding closing loopholes we should accept that Apolyton almost certainly plans to use said loopholes.

I worry this team, while very skilled, is being extremely one-dimensional when it comes to person-to-person diplo. A team being a jerk is not necessarily of no use to us, and a team being our BFF is not necessarily looking out for our best interest. Our biases about "cheap tactics" or "we don't respect those bad at civ" may very well come back to bite us.

I know we talked about this by chat, but I want to address this.

1) We put in a loophole closer. "All those who sign this agreement promise to never use civic or religion swap spy missions or directly help another civ use civic or religion swap spy missions against any other team that signs this agreement for the remainder of the game." Sure I guess you could argue they could creatively interpret that as "well we could gift gold to a 3rd party who could pass it onto CFC and THEN we could get around it" - but if they interpret creatively, we'll do the same and tear the agreement up.

2) Why would they bother seeking out an agreement for the express purpose of using a loophole if they could just NOT bring it up and do whatever they wanted to us? That makes no sense. The only reason this makes even a shred of sense is if they genuinely believe it's a "fair play" issue, which honestly yes it is. We weren't the only ones opposed to those missions pre-game, remember that.

3) I would also remind us that they pillaged a road during the German invasion. I sharply confronted them and told them next time they did that, we'd consider it to be a violation of the NAP. Once I said that, MZ tripped over himself to apologize and they were angels after that. I think that helps them know that we don't tolerate loopholes, and we'll tear agreements up if we think the other side is sneakily violating them.

There's always room for the tinfoil hat stuff, but I think it's a major stretch here. Tinfoil hat theory here requires that Apolyton's thought process here is: "We should cut a deal where RB can't revolt us, but we can gift gold to UCiv who can gift it to CFC and they revolt RB, and there's no way RB would view that as a blatant violation and tear up the agreement." I don't buy that at all, I think this agreement is only super positive and fortunate for us. Appealing to "fair play" really helps, we just saw CivPlayers agree to it when WE brought it up because they agreed it wasn't fair, and they even pointed out it helps us more than them.
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Yes! The EPs, while still terrifying from one direction, and capable of ruining any city defences, are suddenly much less scary than before!
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(July 24th, 2013, 10:05)Zargon Wrote: Nice work. It sounds like part of the CP/Apolyton deal is for Apolyton to upgrade CP's civics with spy revolts.
Wow, cool. This is a really creative use of the mission!
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The forum is frozen with wonder as sentient life is found on alien fora.

paranoia here: but what is arguably the thing we most complained about in the pre-game? espionage swap missions

what is the one thing we are presented with in diplo by a team trying to screen its intentions? espionage swap missions

not saying we shouldn't persue this agreement with all possible haste - just also worried it might be a screening movement.



Also --- you need to corner Yossarian in chat again, scooter smile
--
Best dating advice on RB: When you can't hide your unit, go in fast and hard. -- Sullla
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(July 24th, 2013, 21:08)waterbat Wrote: The forum is frozen with wonder as sentient life is found on alien fora.

paranoia here: but what is arguably the thing we most complained about in the pre-game? espionage swap missions

what is the one thing we are presented with in diplo by a team trying to screen its intentions? espionage swap missions

not saying we shouldn't persue this agreement with all possible haste - just also worried it might be a screening movement.



Also --- you need to corner Yossarian in chat again, scooter smile

As long as the peaceful swap is still allowed (albeit gamey, but so what?) we should be ok AS LONG AS WPC is able to peacefully swap us back. So they need Nationhood. And, they are Hindu, right?
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WPC is not exactly our friend. It's nice that our opponents have that perception though.

I was wondering why CP wanted WPC as part of the treaty. I guess they are concerned that as our "ally" we would have them do the bad spy missions on our behalf. I was thinking that if WPC doesn't want to sign that pact, that we could maybe tell CP that we will never ask WPC to do that, our word of honor etc.

Kalin
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