[SPOILERS] Team Orgynized: Parkin/Arki/Magno embark on a kinky adventure

[Arkipeller]

As someone who only recently started studying the detailed mechanics of Civ IV, it was never clear to me why Vultures lost to Axes. (5 + 50% is equal to 6 + 25%). But now I understand it's because everything but Combat X is actually a subtraction to the enemy, not an addition. So the vulture has effective strength 6 - 50%, and the axe 5 - 25%, which is better. I don't think anyone here needs to be educated on this, I'm just posting in case some lurker is confused by this as I was!

That being said, even though Vultures have advantages, having a disadvantage in Axe v Axe combat is a pretty big deal. That matchup happens a lot in the early game, against barbs if nothing else.

Edit: by the way, I'll be no help with the kink in this thread. I'll be advocating for missionaries.

Vultures have a higher base value. It should count mathematically. Bed now, i'll reread the thread tomorrow. Hi to the lurkers <3

[WilliamLP]

Ugh, and now I learn I'm still out to lunch.

An vulture vs an axe is 6.0 base strength vs 6.25, 35.3% odds in the game UI. The 6.25 is because the Axe gets +50% against melee, and -25% because of the vulture's lesser bonus against melee. So in total the axe gets +25%, and that is 6.25.

An axe vs a vulture is 5.0 vs 4.80 or 65% odds in the game (not quite the inverse). The axe stays at 5, the defending vulture is at -25% now. But in the case of a negative, the game doesn't take off 25%, it treats the percent as positive and divides, so 6.0 / 1.25 = 4.80. I assume this is to avoid nonsensical results when the attacker's bonus exceeds 100%. (So, +100% from anything but Combat X promotions would really mean cut the defender's base strength in half). A full reference of this is here.

More stats from testing in world builder:

Vulture v Axe: 35.3%
Axe v Vulture: 65.0%

Axe v Axe on hill: 25.1%
Vulture v Axe on hill: 25.1%
Axe v Vulture on hill: 27.2%

Axe v Axe on forest: 9.9%
Vulture v Axe on forest: 10.8% (The higher base strength starts to pull ahead here.)
Axe v Vulture on forest: 9.9%

Axe v Axe on forest hill: 3.3%
Vulture v Axe on forest hill: 3.8%
Axe v Vulture on forest hill: 3.0%

These odds are all from the alt key in game.

It seems like while in the open field axes have quite an advantage, when you add in defensive terrain, either on offense or on defense, the Vulture's base strength evens it up or surpasses it.

Someone can now tell me I'm missing some other detail...

[Sian]

Agriculture and Mining are the two most expensive techs possible to start with (ie. China only) ... not Agriculture/Wheel

[WilliamLP]

Agriculture and Mining are the two most expensive techs possible to start with (ie. China only) ... not Agriculture/Wheel

The F6 screen thinks you're wrong.

[Magno_uy]

But you should count on that agains horses and other non meel units vulture had and extra point of strength, so comparing Vulture vs axes its just half o the equation...
I mean, Vulture may be worst than axes but they do better against others units.

[WilliamLP]

But you should count on that agains horses and other non meel units vulture had and extra point of strength, so comparing Vulture vs axes its just half o the equation...
I mean, Vulture may be worst than axes but they do better against others units.

I agree. I'll quit trying to dominate a thread I'm not even a key player on, but my feelings are that when I'm choosing a civ for its unique unit, I'd like the answer to whether it's better than what it replaces to be "yes" rather than a long conversation.

[Lord Parkin]

Listed the alternatives here. Some of them are quite useful. I've listed only the difference between them and their ordinary alternatives.

Egypt (Agriculture/The Wheel) - Early units and buildings. Unit is fairly strong, but req horses. If we want an early religion and shrine, the obelisks could be of great help.
Unit: War ChariotsChariot) +1 Strenght, Immune to First Strikes
Building: Obelisk: Can employ 2 Priests

With a random map the Horse requirement could indeed be a bit of a gamble. With a hand-balanced map however, I'd be very surprised if any civ lacked for either Horses or metal within a reasonable range of their starting location. So I wouldn't worry so much about not having the resource required for a UU.

The UB is rather limited but can occasionally be handy. Strength 5 Chariots coupled with the best starting techs to enable them quickly though... superb. Overall one of my favourite choices - great if you choose to attack someone early, but also great even if you never use them (as the threat of them still discourages others from messing with you early on).

Ottoman (Agriculture/The Wheel) - An Aqueduct that gives happies!
Unit: Janissary.(Musketman) +25% vs. Archery, Melee, and Mounted Units
Building: Hammam (Aqueduct): Gives +2 Happiness

Always a nice UB especially on a map without too many happy resources, though it does take a while to get into action. The UU is again nice though at a slightly awkward position in the game which tends to give it a shorter shift on the field than desirable. Overall a good choice.

France (Agriculture/The Wheel) - This is usually not interresting, but maybe you like it
Unit: Musketeer: +1 movement
Building: Salon (Observatory): 1 free Artist

I used to be rather dismissive of France but I've seen some interesting things done with them recently and would be curious to try them out. A draftable 2-move unit is intriguing, even if it gets a short shift in the game. Probably not a first choice, but certainly worth keeping in mind.

Sumeria (Agriculture/The Wheel) - Early Courthouses means we may start spying/stealing from early on! Good Unit too!
Unit: Vulture (Axeman) +1 Strenght
Building: Ziggurat (Courthouse) Requires Priesthood instead of Code of Laws!

Probably wouldn't be worth building Courthouses in significant numbers that much earlier than normal (unless paired with an Organized leader), but it's nice to have some freedom to delay Code of Laws and build them a bit cheaper. I'm not a big fan of Vultures, but it could be interesting to try them out. Lower on the priority list compared to other civ choices though.

Babylon (Agriculture/The Wheel) - Very Defensive civ.
Unit: Bowman (Archer) +50% vs. Melee Units
Building: Garden (Colloseum) +2 Health

Not really that defensive, even, since the best defense is a good offense. Plus Bowmen do nothing against mounted attacks. Add the underwhelming UB at a time where your happy cap is usually more relevant than your healthy cap in most cities, and it's not a particularly appealing choice. Okay if all the other civs with decent starting techs are taken though.

China (Agriculture/Mining) - Do we need catapult-backup? In that case this unit is ok. Building is worthless unless you go for cultural victory.
Unit: Cho-Ko-Nu (X-bowman) 2 first strikes and Causes collateral damage (x-bows got 1 FS)
Building: Pavilion (Theatre) : +25% culture

One of the interesting things about the Chinese UU is that it continues to be effective for cheap collateral damage quite late into the game (as long as you can afford to avoid Military Science). It's definitely one of the better UU's, and paired with the most generally useful starting techs makes for quite a civ. The UB is pretty much a write-off, but you can't have everything after all. Definitely high on the list of choices.

Mali (Mining/The Wheel) - Unit is fairly good for very early rushes, building gives a small bonus.
Unit: Skirmisher (Archer): +1 Strenght, 1-2 First Strikes (Archers got only one)
Building: Mint (Forge) +10% income

I doubt we'll be early rushing anyone, especially given that one of the map design requirements is to "discourage early rushes" - which likely means no close starts and perhaps chokepoints or other easily defensible terrain. The primary use of the Skirmisher is really in the meta-game: who wants to bother attacking Mali in the early part of the game, especially when there are softer targets around? The threat of invading armies facing Skirmishers is kind of like an early game insurance policy.

The Mint is nothing special, but decent (especially paired with the Industrious trait). The Wheel is less useful than Agriculture as a starting tech but still better than any other alternative, so not bad overall. Definitely worth considering.

[Qgqqqqq]

. I'll quit trying to dominate a thread I'm not even a key player on, but my feelings are that when I'm choosing a civ for its unique unit, I'd like the answer to whether it's better than what it replaces to be "yes" rather than a long conversation.

But no-one chooses (non-India) civs for their UU anyway.

[Lord Parkin]

Hi, unless you object I'll be ded-lurking you guys because I think I can learn something from this thread. I'll still pretty green but I'll throw questions and opinions out that you can feel free to ignore.

Welcome, glad to have you with us! Always good to have another person on board.

My intuition, too, is that IND is undervalued on this site. There are just so many wonders that change the game and have an impact far beyond the cost of the hammer input. It also scales up with fewer players, so is even better with only 7-8 teams in this game I think. I'm also a fan of bold plays that make a civ distinct in the game, kind of like creating an imbalanced position in chess.

Indeed... though the downside of making yourself distinct is that it does tend to lead to dogpiles. But taking no risks inevitably results in an average, middle of the pack position. To me it's better to stand out and deal with the consequences than fit in with the crowd and resign yourself to playing for second or third place.

For civs, my feeling is Egypt is far ahead of the rest listed, because the WC gives a unique advantage in the land grabbing phase, and the rest of the game can snowball out of that. Chariots are a unit that will be built and used anyway (much more than archer-based units) and WC have a much greater utility into the Medieval age than regular chariots do. The obelisk is nice for generating a prophet, but with IND, some wonder that generates the points ought to be possible.

I certainly agree that Egypt is one of the stronger picks outside of India and Inca. Strength 5 chariots are just so versatile, and also valuable in the meta-game (as one of the scariest early units to face as a rival).

Im on Financial civ + same early UU. like to take some neighbor in troubles soon :D

so, from the mentioned Egipy or Summeria would be muy choise.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

It seems like while in the open field axes have quite an advantage, when you add in defensive terrain, either on offense or on defense, the Vulture's base strength evens it up or surpasses it.

Also when you start applying promotions, they stack better on Vultures than Axemen - for instance, Combat I gives +0.6 strength rather than +0.5. It's still not great, especially on a unit whose primary use in many games is to attack or defend against other Axes, but it's something. Can't say they'd be my first choice in a vacuum though.

Agriculture and Mining are the two most expensive techs possible to start with (ie. China only) ... not Agriculture/Wheel

No, Agriculture/Wheel is the most expensive combination to start with. But Agriculture/Mining frequently proves to be the most useful, largely because a head start on Bronze Working once you've got your food hooked up is so valuable.

For any game, Agriculture/Wheel are 20% more expensive than Mining/Mysticism and 50% more expensive than Hunting/Fishing. Mining/Mysticism are 25% more expensive than Hunting/Fishing. Not a significant difference on small maps and low difficulties, but quite important on larger maps and higher difficulties where the interval between early tech discoveries is longer.

But you should count on that agains horses and other non meel units vulture had and extra point of strength, so comparing Vulture vs axes its just half o the equation...
I mean, Vulture may be worst than axes but they do better against others units.

True, though the main problem is that more often Axes will battle against other Axes than any other unit (at least in games I've been in). So a UU that is weaker than the default against its primary opponent on the open field is not quite ideal. Still, they do have their uses.

I agree. I'll quit trying to dominate a thread I'm not even a key player on, but my feelings are that when I'm choosing a civ for its unique unit, I'd like the answer to whether it's better than what it replaces to be "yes" rather than a long conversation.

Don't worry about posting too much, we don't mind! Better to speak up and have a discussion - it makes the thread more interesting, and there's always the potential to learn something new.

[Lord Parkin]

But no-one chooses (non-India) civs for their UU anyway.

Well, depends on the game type. Certainly in fast-paced duel environments the UU is a big consideration. But even in a large free-for-all pitboss environment where UU's aren't as crucial, it's valuable to compare them between nations that are otherwise similar (with the same starting techs).