Gillette Turn Discussion

[Cheater Hater]

If they're heading for Rifling I guess that means they aren't beelining Physics? I'm worried we might have to go right for Military Science (ignoring Communism completely) to defend against it--I don't know if it's shorter to go right to Military Science or go through Communism (since we could run the slider higher on average--but the anarchy turns have to be considered in that as well) (and how are we getting "turns" of anarchy regardless? I thought we were just switching to State Property, and possibly Theocracy--that would only be one turn, unless I'm missing a swap)

Again, any word from M3 on their war plans? We're going to need a coordinated effort to take Trolls back down a peg, and I'm almost certain TEAM is locked in a NAP, and Pirates don't care/aren't willing to take a risk.

How can Trolls settle on SFL next turn? Wouldn't they need to land the settler one turn, then settle? I don't think settlers can get Morale

I'm pretty sure Occam is the second-best researching city in the world at least, possibly behind Trolls' Oxford site (where is it, for reference?)

How much gold does Trolls currently have? Are they going to exhaust themselves going for Rifling, which would let us swoop in to deny Physics?

[Old Harry]

I just looked and switching one civic costs us two turns, switching two is two turns, three is three turns and four is also three turns.

We pay 193 gpt in distance maintenance that state property will remove... I think that might have an effect on inflation too, but I don't understand that. But two turns of anarchy when we're looking to build up a military is painful. Instead of Theology we could get Nationalism to draft muskets? Or we could switch all three. To be honest this is just making my head hurt. Why did Trolls have to steal our great spy?

I'll try to get HAK on chat tomorrow. I think we want to ask them for some rifles up front and get them into our front cities in return for cannons later. I don't know if they'll be allowed to do that under their NAP though... But our NAP expires t200 and theirs t210, so its still early for them to be discussing logistics.

The settler could have been on a different galleon and landed where our other settler was sitting, but I don't think it's likely. I hope.

I can't see the Troll Oxford, I'd assume it's in Caipirinha though.

They have 1800 gold, should we race them for physics? We have about 3500 beakers this turn, plus a great scientist for 2150 beakers - we might be able to 1-turn it. If we aren't skipping it we should probably do it this turn to get the GS...

[YossarianLives]

Yeah, if we can 1-turn physics, I say we go for it. We obviously need to switch into state property, and I don't think theology is worth the extra turn off anarchy, so probably just sp and nationalism for the civics switch?

[Cheater Hater]

Really? This is normal speed, right? On normal, 1/2 civics is 1 turn and 3/4 is 2 turns--maybe there's something weird going on with sequential? Check on our turn to make sure it works

How long would Nationalism take? I think Nationhood is certainly more worth it than Theocracy, but what cities would we be willing to draft in a non-emergency situation?

I thought M3's NAP expired T190 and ours T200--maybe I was wrong about that? I certainly wouldn't mind the extra turns before we have to worry about war, but M3 having to wait 20 turns doesn't help our cause :/

[YossarianLives]

Having more cities increases the length of anarchy during civics switches. T-Hawk dove into the code and explained it like this:

This is what makes civic changes take longer later. It is not due to the game date or to any previous civic changes; it is driven only by your number of cities. Every N cities counts as one additional "ghost" civic change. On a normal map, it's every 100 / 8 = 12.5 cities. So your 13th city, 25th, 38th, 50th, and so on each cause extra anarchy.

[Cheater Hater]

Wow--I've never played a game up to 25+ cities (and rarely 13+) since I hate microing large empires, which would explain me not knowing that rule

[Old Harry]

Turn 186

Here is that settler again, we need to settle Desert Eagle (name swapped with Carbine for OCD reasons).


It costs us 25 gpt (although its making 9 beakers) and puts our distance maintenance to 204 gpt.


I haven't ended turn because I wanted to consult about tech path. I'm really not sure what we want to do next.


At max beakers we make about 1750 bpt (including all bonii) and pay 650 gold per turn. We have about 1650 beakers overflow this turn too, meaning we have 3400 beakers to use this turn then 1750 per turn after that.

We have 2800 gold in the bank right now, so can run four turns of flat out research. Which is a total of 8600. The costs of the techs we want right now are:

Physics . . . . . 5720 (3570 with a bulb)
Communism . 4004
Nationalism .. 2574
Theo . . . . . . 715
Gunpowder .. 1716 (Double pre-req means its more like 1400)
Chemistry . .. 2574
Steel . . . . . . 4004
Mil Sci . . . . . 2860

Running state property we'd be making the same number of beakers but only paying 400 per turn. Break-even research rate would then be about 55% and make around 770 base (920 adjusted beakers). Right now its 33% and 450 base beakers (500 adjusted beakers).

Our options are:
Physics with a bulb: ETA 1 turn, no overflow (we need to build about 150 beakers of research)
Communism: ETA 2 turns (eot187), 1000 overflow
Nationalism then Communism: ETA 3 turns (eot188), 300 overflow
Theology then Communism: ETA 2 turns (eot187), 450 overflow
Physics-Communism: 4 turns (eot189), 1100 overflow
No civic-switches:
Gunpowder, Chemistry, steel: ETA 4 turns (eot189), 700 overflow
Physics then Gunpowder, Chemistry, Steel: ETA 5 turns (eot190)

Our MFG is fairly poor while our crop yeild and happy cap are good, so Nationalism will help. I'd like to deny Trolls at least one great person in this game though, which argues for physics (I think they have two great people on hand, and are hoping for another to launch a golden age and start drafting). Going Physics-Communism might allow us to get Nationalism the turn after, then revolt t191 and 192, get gunpowder t193 and start drafting t194.

Sorry if this is a bit of a mess, what do you guys think?

[YossarianLives]

From my semi-removed perspective, I like Physics-Communism-Nationalism, and then double revolt into sp and nationalism.

[Cheater Hater]

If we're so manufacturing-poor, drafting makes sense, though drafting only Muskets obviously is horrible (though I guess it's better than Zerks? Maybe?). If we go Physics->Communism->Nationalism->Gunpowder, will we be able to get Chemistry before the economy crashes? (or more likely, with a turn of break-even). Don't forget State Property increases our production by 10% as well when thinking we're hammer-poor. We'll also probably pop Uranium somewhere which will help our research slightly.

When considering how much gold we have, don't forget we'll get shrine gold (which has to be a ton right now) each of the two anarchy turns, which will let us research even faster

When do we stop focusing on researching and move to upgrading/saving? I think we need Military Science at least, but Cannons would certainly help. How many techs would it be to our own rifles--Banking->Replaceable Parts->Rifling, or am I missing something?

[Old Harry]

Drafting Muskets is marginally better than zerks. If we revolt to SP/Nat after we get Nationalism I think we get Gunpowder t193, Chemistry t195, steel t198. Although that's a really hand-wavey estimate. The benefit though is we're making a lot more money after this.

If we don't bother with Communism or Nationalism and go Physics-gun-chem-steel I think we get it eot191, then Mil Sci t193 or 4, then we can save up to do the upgrades and whip as many cannons as possible.

Edit: Cannon collateral can get rifles down to 40% - Strength 5.6, so the zerks and knights we already have can clean up and we don't necessarily need grenadiers.

So in a flat out race to t201 the latter wins, but I'm inclined towards the former for the money (the extra hammers help too!) Either way I think it sounds like we want physics this turn.

I didn't know that about the shrine that's about 50 gpt...

I think we need chemistry for frigates, then I'd go for steel before Mil Sci - cannons are so much better than cats compared to grens vs zerks. We should hold off our boat attack until we have the cash to get Mil Sci and upgrade in one turn.

I had a chat with HAK yesterday, but didn't get anything decided - I think THH will be playing for the next month or so so I'll try and grab him tonight.