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Just a wild idea (sorry if it was suggested and discarded before). Could we ask for a loan with big interest for UCiv or CivFr? Like 1000 gold now for 1500/2000 gold later (obviously changing the numbers to what fits our needs). I'm not even sure if that's a good idea and if we would want to do it, but it could help speeding up Rifling, which is worth way more than the interest rate we'd be paying, in my opinion.
I think it was suggested before that we could ask for a loan and repay in tech steals, but that's too intangible of a reward for whoever we propose the deal to. Repaying gold with interest would look more like a straight up gain for whoever signs a deal with us.
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I think it's a worthwhile idea, but I'd like to know what you guys think is a good interest rate to offer. Finding a number both us and whoever is comfortable with may be a challenge.
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Could ask WPC, its not definitive that they hate us that much.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
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how the hell is wpc going to get 1000 gold to loan us?
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
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(July 30th, 2013, 10:43)antisocialmunky Wrote: Could ask WPC, its not definitive that they hate us that much.
Yeah I'm sure they could shut off science for 10T and accumulate maybe 150 gold. :P
July 30th, 2013, 11:14
(This post was last modified: July 30th, 2013, 11:18 by MWIN.)
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Let's go for it. I don't really care about the price. Sulla mentioned, we can get do it in 12 turns ourselves by using wealth builds. If we get 250 per turn from Univciv, can we do it in 6 to 7 turns? Do they have any accumulated gold? If we get 300 per turn for next 7 turns, we can return 300 per turn for next 14 turns...
We should offer at least 50% interest rate in first email to get a faster response or a response at all...
(July 30th, 2013, 10:40)scooter Wrote: I think it's a worthwhile idea, but I'd like to know what you guys think is a good interest rate to offer. Finding a number both us and whoever is comfortable with may be a challenge.
Mwin
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(July 30th, 2013, 10:44)scooter Wrote: (July 30th, 2013, 10:43)antisocialmunky Wrote: Could ask WPC, its not definitive that they hate us that much.
Yeah I'm sure they could shut off science for 10T and accumulate maybe 150 gold. :P
Then we'd only have to ask UCiv for 850.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
July 30th, 2013, 15:50
(This post was last modified: July 30th, 2013, 15:54 by scooter.)
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Dangit if I'm not determined to try everything possible to crack this crazy dogpile  . So this is me chatting with OT4E of CivPlayers trying to figure out what their "price" is to walk away. It is very meandering and fruitless for awhile, but we have something very notable to discuss at the end. I'll bold that part in case you want to skim down to the good stuff.
Chat with CivPlayers Wrote:scooter
So I've never quite been able to piece this together - what did you guys gain from funding apolyton all the way to rifling?
that seems to put you guys in a really unfair position relative to them... They can defend against us pretty easily with those rifles, but they've left you with not much at all
OT4E
There are many things we cant understand too
for example how it happened that your friends WPC got nothing from your campaign?
you have your own view on what is fair
it seems to me 
scooter
They didn't capture anything. They didn't attack with nearly enough
OT4E
i am not judging me
scooter
you guess what happens when dog soldiers attack elephants and longbows :P
OT4E
not judging you
scooter
of course you are, you just implied it wasn't fair :P
Anyway, you avoided my question
OT4E
you asked about what we count fair or not
scooter
I think it's a pretty valid question since it pertains to your security
I guess what I mean is
Apolyton's play makes a lot of sense. They got themselves rifles and drafting, and they're totally safe and in great shape
but I don't see you gaining anything, and I think you guys are a better team than WPC
hence my confusion
OT4E
sorry, I found right word for my statement. Yes I am a bit judging you, because I have different view, but didnt try to shame you or something like that. You know WPC saved you a lot of units because taken the main strike of Germans. Blaming them for being slow? may be.. heh
Was just wondering about your position. It is ofc not my business.
About Apolyton we are too generous, possibly. But why do you worry about us so much? I will not forgive myself if you will feel deep sadness destroying us
scooter
I guess there's no way we can convince you for sure regarding WPC until you see after the game. If it weren't for us, the German team would have conquered a lot of their cities. But what's done there is done.
as for you guys - I don't really care what you choose, I just think you guys are a pretty smart team, so there must be *something* you're getting out of that which we can't see
Like, I definitely don't believe that you guys just plan to be martyrs for their cause
OT4E
Regarding WPC I dont know much. We only chatted once and they seemed unhappy. We also saw some with our scouts... ok it doesnt matter. Winners are not the ones to be judged, yeah?
as for us. Thnx for your opinion. I'd better not disappoint you to early, right?
And finally I dont think we have a choice.
scooter
what do you mean about not having a choice?
OT4E
not have to choose much what to do
scooter
I don't see how you're forced to jump in with apolyton at all.
OT4E
What can we do in your eyes?
scooter
well, what is your goal? Are you trying to win, finish as high as possible, better your position?
those aren't always the same goals though they are similar
OT4E
to win
how can we win?
about how to finish as high as possible I will ask you later
scooter
well to win you need to beat us, CivFr, CFC, and Apolyton. This war really only ends in you being behind the other 3 most likely
OT4E
thnx cap
[He really made me laugh here . I was typing that as just the first half of my message continued below and hit enter, but in form of a log it looks pretty funny]
scooter
Apolyton might have enough to take 1-3 cities or so if everything goes flawlessly, but they know they can't get further than taht at all
CFC is free to run over UCiv or WPC and get a bunch of land
I'd just think you'd pick on an easier to dogpile target like CivFr if you want to gain some land
OT4E
ah we can give you NAP and you can probably say us "farewell, see you on alpha centauri"
you seriously think that we have a reason to play if we just give you peace, let you earn first fruits from your land? Tell me why not finish the game right now then?
scooter
why does it matter to you who wins though?
by that I mean:
OT4E
yes frenchies are easy target but they wont be willing to give us theirs land for free too
scooter
you could attack us sure. You won't gain anything, but you could slow us down. All that really does is improve CFC's chance of winning, not yours
so what difference does it make if CFC cruises along to alpha centauri or you do?
*or we do
or anyone other than you for that matter
nobody will give you land for free, but their land will be less expensive than ours 
OT4E
you have more, your prices must be cheaper
:D
scooter
nah, all these catapults and guys with big guns that carry our banner seem to insist on high prices. they drive hard bargains.
Anyway. All I foresee is a big war where 0 cities of consequence change hands. You, Apolyton, us do not benefit from that, but wow does CFC ever
whereas on your western side is a team with no friends and half our military size
and hey, we'd even be willing to help you out with that at no gain to ourselves. but you seem pretty set in your plans
OT4E
I was seeking for a help you could give us for a pretty long time. As number 1 and leader by much you tbh didnt make any step to make friendship with us.
And finally I think you will still win. Seriously. I have no idea why are you asking for easy life :P.
Of course we dont expect to take any land from you. We are happy with what we have right now.
About civfr we will think, may be later if you somehow keep us alive
scooter
Yeah maybe we would have been better friends if we had just asked you to fund us towards Rifling.
Anyway, that offer is real. You and Apolyton take a NAP with us, pile on CivFr with Apolyton & CFC, and we'll supply you guys with some units for free. that closes the gap to us for all of you. Something to think about anyway
CivFr can't even draft right now I don't think, so they would fold much, much quicker than us.
OT4E
I think better when I see numbers.
What quantity of units are you talking about?
scooter
Heh. I'd have to have a little more confidence you were seriously interested because right now that sounds like a request for an exact composition of the defenses you'll face in a little bit
You are familiar with our power graph, our tech position, and you've seen a lot of our stacks in Incan land... so you have a good idea of what we have I think
OT4E
no problem. I am asking if you are ready to give a half of what you have or all or a quater. I dont need the names you give to your musketeers.
not seeking for D'Artanians, just the regular ones
scooter
(sorry, busy with some things at work, was not ignoring you)
And okay. Well if you really are interested in a concrete offer, I'll talk with my team about it and get back to you by tomorrow. If you're not seriously interested, I hope you'll say so and spare us the discussion
Alright. I think we should pursue this. As much as we all want CivFr to be friends, they are refusing to do diplo with anyone. Therefore, I think we should instead play the hand dealt and encourage people to aim at them instead. I think we should make them a serious offer here. A joint offer to Apolyton and CivPlayers. They take a minimum 50T NAP and an agreement to never use the troops we give against us, and we give them X units. I sort of doubt they'll accept, but that's enough interest there for it to be worth our time.
So three questions:
1) Generally speaking, should we make an offer? I think 100% absolutely yes
2) What do we have right now that we could offer if we literally gave everything?
3) What percentage of that should we offer?
I don't want to give them super precise numbers, just general numbers. They can see probably all our cities anyway, so they more or less know our whole military.
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Brief follow-up:
Chat with CivPlayers Wrote:OT4E
I wont promise you anything anyway, hope you understand. Seems that it was improvisation from you, not well thought proposal. As I said we are always open for reasonable offers. If you see a better way how to bring us to the win, why not? Better than what we have now I mean...
But it depends to how generous your offer is. If you are going to propose 5 muskets, you'd better not waste your time .. and mine too.
We also understand basics a bit. Your last offer was just to make peace with everyone which is good for you. Now you are asking to make peace and drop the burden of maintance you carry for your military, so it can be even better for you than to keep it. Please consider this too.
I dont ask you for exact quantities, so dont hurry to pick up your calculators... Just in general what offer in your view could work?
scooter
Yes I understand. It wasn't an offer our team has seriously discussed, just something I believe they would support. I've already posted it in our thread and I should get quick feedback. I would give you my opinion on what general amounts we would offer, but I don't want to contradict the rest of my team's wishes
so I'll give you something more thought out by tomorrow if that sounds okay with you
OT4E
ok
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His follow-up about maintenance is either disingenuous or silly. Yes if we had 20 axes outside our territory it would be nice to get them off the books, but giving CFC modern units is much more valuable to them than any gold we save.
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