RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

And my usual morning conversation with Ruff:

Ruff.Hi: found that iron / gems city of Ath - also found a camel archer
forgot to send you a map - pls request or I will send one next time

me: Yeah I saw one too - think it was an upgraded HA
Just got a message from him: "OK. In terms of our NAP I'd like to still see it in place but with some slight modification. I believe right now it's in effect until T118 with autorenewal and a 10 turn cooldown? I'd like to remove the cool down. If you disagree to this change I'll consider the NAP null and void."

Ruff.Hi: no - built
$ differences don't add up if upgraded
woh - what a strange message
is the 10T cooldown in addition to T118
or during the period T100 to T118?

me: I'm not certain

Ruff.Hi: seems he wants the ability to WAR before T128
what happens if NAP is null and void - he attacks now?

me: yeah
doubt it, he doesn't have the force

Ruff.Hi: do you?

me: I have enough Janns in place
to defend

Ruff.Hi: you could call his bluff
oh - ok

me: but not take fight to them
he's also been asking if I'd be willing to fight with him against mh
I've been dancing around the issue

Ruff.Hi: against his buddy?

me: " Just as in the pitboss game, something will need to change in this game and maybe this is the answer?"

Ruff.Hi: crap
we are totally winning this game and they know it

me: If he's willing to keep the NAP for 18t
That should see me safe from an immediate 2v1

Ruff.Hi: I would suggest that you say you always thought the 10t cooling down was part of the time from now to T118

me: (Which I think I did)

Ruff.Hi: and that the current NAP holds

me: (probably better look at the NAP e-mails

Ruff.Hi: re him and you fighting mh ... say that you would be willing to do that but he has to bribe you into war with techs UP FRONT
or you could say that you flat out don't believe him and just leave it at that

me: I think I can dance some more

Ruff.Hi: I am going to be PC less this evening so don't expect a turn from me tomorrow
going to spend some time thinking about the end-game for this pbem ... I think we are getting close to being in a position to push for that

me: Say something like: If you and mh WERE to end up at war, it would certainly be in my interests to take part, and I hope that my previous e-mails have let you know whose side I would take.
Make it conditional on them being at war first

Ruff.Hi: yep - but they can not be at war pretty quickly if they need to be
hey - do you have any spare health over there?

me: You running out?
(probably do)

Ruff.Hi: my military city is at -2 (after getting rice from Ath)

me: Oh yes, fp

Ruff.Hi: I can build a aqua but don't really want to take the 4 turns it will take me

me: certainly

Ruff.Hi: no - just size and no fresh water

me: you need 1 or 2health

Ruff.Hi: or forests
1 would be good, 2 would be better
and I will slowly build an aqua to compensate for losing ath rice

me: let me look when I see the game

Ruff.Hi: np

me: I 'm pretty sure I can spare one
but unsure whether 2 is doable
You've got all the grains, right?

Ruff.Hi: corn
importing rice
pigs

me: no Wheat?

Ruff.Hi: nope
don't think so

me: Hmmmm

Ruff.Hi: I have 2 corn

me: I'll see i I can spare it

Ruff.Hi: but I think I have sent 1 to you

me: I think so maybe
not a lot of duplicates around
BTW, do you plan to settle the South anytime soon?
could use the spare Incense

Ruff.Hi: will be moving FF onto settlers next turn
my power v soooo is much better now .
331 v 301
me being 331
have 4 city sites planned
hey - do you need sugar?
I have a spare sugar in my territory now that I haven't hooked up

me: Nope, I've got 2Sugar
one of the very few duplicates

[Dreylin]

Straight onto t101 - nice to be getting some turns in before mh goes on vacation!

Notre Dame de Istanbul Wonder movie greets me - that shoud sort out any happiness issues for a while.

Hmmmm, University of Sankore is only a 5t build with Stone & GA, and 2beakers per Conf building (to add to the 2h) is a decent boost. 5Confs so far so 10b base per turn, vs 123h investment so a 12t payoff. Alternatively, those 123h (base) could produce 4Janns. Well I have 3 other cities on full-time Jann work, & Konya is freed up now as well. Discuss with Ruff for a while, but we eventually agree the payoff is good.

Edirne: Uni - Conf Missionary
Ankara: Uni - Spy
Konya: Moai - Jann
Samsun: Jann - Jann

Grabbed a quick screenie of the cities screen for you.

Workers are mostly concentrating on new cities right now - particularly clearing the approached to Samsun & Diyarbakir in the SW (4 there), and a couple at Izmir in the East.

Dial research back up to 100%; now at -79gpt Ouch! Dial up Ruff and request that amount from him (incidentally, his entire treasury). I have also reviewed the Health situation and am at a minimum of +4 (then I remember I am EXP!) so also offer Wheat. Oh, and World-map exchange so that I can get visibility on athlete's latest city in the South.

Chem due at EOT, then overflow into Liberalism, then larger overflow into Nationalism.

[MWIN]

Get steel and kill Athlete. No point in waiting for them to get to tech parity....

[Dreylin]

An intriguing message fom athlete:

Hey Andy,

I have a few moments now and this is taking priority over updating my thread so feel flattered! OK so I figure I'd better be completely open about everything as I feel that will help secure what I'm looking for (possibly just reassurances, possibly more) better than trying to beat around the bush.

MH and Soooo are TIGHT. This probably comes as no shocker. I have been pretty much aligned with them since the divide, again no shocker. Still I've never felt I've shut the door so to speak. So ya we agreed to trade tech to a certain point which you obviously saw, and has effectively locked you out of the bottom half of the tree. OK so I get why you spy bombed me, however, with an NAP in place with me a spy bomb is clearly an act of aggression, and you did not have one with MH who is basically an equalized target when compared to me.

In terms of my relationship with MH, I've chosen to spread buddhism as I don't believe he has the shrine yet, and if he gets it, I'm helping a "weaker" civ, not one of the big 3. Also if it shouldon whether he plans to attack me (or possibly you) or if these troops he's building are for defense considering he'll have a 2 front border with 0 NAP's. come to it, that would be the easiest holy city for me to obtain :-). In terms of tech my responsibilities end at Economics with MH (and Soooo). My NAP with MH comes to a halt on turn 110 with no renewal at this point and by the sounds of things not one to come. While MH and I are toe to toe in power right now he still does owe me tech so I'm uncertain as to what will happen.

In terms of my relationship with Soooo we are friendly. No NAP and have shared tech as part of the 3some but apart from that I might as well be aiding either you or Ruff as I've no stronger connection than that with Soooo.

I hope that gives you a better idea of where I am positioned. If you have any questions let me know and I shall answer to the best of my ability.

Now in terms of tech I can not yet trade you Feudalism as it would only cause aggravation and further give MH a reason to declare on me sooner than later. However once all our current arrangements run out I see it as fair game. That being said with you positioned the way you are I can't really fault you for using the benefits of spy bombing me by stealing tech. That's not exactly permission to go ahead and steal Feudalism but it only takes me 1 turn of research for music so maybe if you stole Feudalism you could gift me music in exchange? I'm not sure of the hammer cost of a spy but Music + cost of spy = Feudalism is basically what I'm offering (I think that's worded properly). This is of course with agreeing to remain in an NAP.

Regarding the NAP I wish to renegotiate it now when I've got some time to think through my thoughts (I've been terribly busy lately and it's made me quite scatter brained...sorry :-) ). Here's what I would like: extend our current NAP to T125 with no auto renewal and no cooldown at this point. However I want to coordinate with you quite closely from now until that point our communications and possibly mutual military struggles in the near future. I do believe I've no wish to not be in an NAP with you but I don't want to be stuck in one with anybody for a long period of time. Until T125 is long enough @ quick speed. I believe the offer regarding the NAP is more than fair considering you made a very aggressive move against me while holding a Non-AGGRESSION Pact with me.

Now onto military and the situation at hand. Can you shed some light on how you see you and I cooperating? Would you participate in the war and we'd split the spoils? First come first serve? Would you gift units for some sort of trade (money/tech/spoils of war)? If something like that happened how can we make it work best for the both of us? I would ideally like to see pariticipation by proxy and you provide seige units (I believe your not far from cannons if you went that route). However at this point it's not a reality and might be totally avoided still so and I have no idea how you would like to be compensated in return for something like that. As well what if I were to declare on MH? Would you still cooperate with me? Do you only want to help in a defensive battle? I'm not looking for any commitments or anything like that nature just thoughts for now as I've shared with you.

A lot to read and a lot of questions. Take your time (as I certainly do). I hope this isn't too much for one e-mail :-). I look forward to your response.

Taylor

So what to make of this? Taken at face value, this can only be good for me: why be in the "2" of a 3v2 tech alignment, or the "1" in a 2v1 war? I'm having enough trouble financing my empire at it's current size, so really have no need to expand out into either mh or athlete's lands, however splitting and breaking the back of the opposition would be extremely good. I guess the key here is to make certain as best I can that I don't expose myself to a backstab while my army is in the field....

Taylor,

First things first: how about rather than calling this a continuation of our previous NAP, let's call it a whole new agreement? I am very happy to agree to a NAP until t125 with no cooling-off period, and include a clause that no Spy action be undertaken without prior approval.

As far as your suggested Feud/Music deal is concerned; I'll have to look at the numbers more closely but my immediate thought is that it would probably be better for me to just research it myself since everyone else knows it.

You haven't directly asked about my relations, but I'll answer anyway: mh and I haven't talked since he refused me MC and self-researched CS; we have no agreements in place. I also haven't really talked with sooooo since then, however we do still have a NAP in place with a 10t cooling-off period. As you know, Ruff and I have been collaborating closely on tech and he will be a party to any agreement you an I manage to reach.

And on to the meat of your message: if we were to end up in a war against mh (defensive or aggressive), I would expect us to sketch out an agreement on division of spoils and participation levels before too much action had taken place. There would necessarily need to be a greater level of trust built up between us before I'd be willing to gift you units which could be used back against me, however I note that due to turn-order it would be entirely possible for me to send a siege stack to bombard/collateral, then you have the assault-unit stack and actually take the city. As you say though, at this point it's just speculation.

If you feel I've missed or sidestepped any of your questions, please let me know and I'll try and answer them more effectively.

Andy.

[Dreylin]

Also while pondering, I think it would be a good idea to get my Iron back for a while from Ruff:

Hey Ruff,

Could you be at a point in your builds to allow me to take my Iron back for a couple of turns? Ideally, I could cancel the trade during my t103 - the turn I'll get Steel - so can start building a couple of Cannons. I should be able to get 4-5 of them out and would then hand the Iron back to you in 3-4t. I would feel much better if I had a couple of Cannon on my Western border, rather than having to wait for them to arrive from the East.

Let me know if you see any problem with that.

Dreylin.

[Dreylin]

I have pikes in production. Will be finished in 1 more turn (ie - after the turn I played on the train today).

Excellent, that's exactly the time I want the Iron back.

[Dreylin]

t102 - Chemistry comes in, Liberalism in 1t.

Ankara: Spy - Worker(1t)
Bursa: Jann - Jann(1t)
Gaziantep: Jann - Conf Missionary(1t) [to allow Cannon build next turn]

Start reviewing cities nd notice that Istanbul reads as 6t to Sankore ... check and discover that athlete's culture has overtaken my Stone tile. <Sigh> Istanbul queues a 1t Conf Missionary, and I request to borrow Ruff's Stone. (will get significant overflow from Missionary)

Whip Forge in Diyarbakir.

Great Scientist born in Edirne; heads to Istanbul to build Academy - reaches, but runs out of movement so will build next turn.

Am going to finish 7builds next turn, sounds like 7Cannon next. :D

[Dreylin]

New message from Athlete; whatever's going on, he's certainly keeping his promise to keep in touch regularly!

Hey Andy,

Again at work so not a full amount of time to respond. Let me just confirm accept the flat NAP until T125. We'll certainly discuss renewal options in the future.

I might have made the first grounds in avoiding war (atleast a defensive one) with MH so I will keep you updated on that.

I'll respond in further detail about the rest (hopefully later this evening) but if not than tomorrow.

Taylor

[Dreylin]

Summary of foriegn news supplied by Ruff (saves me having to type it out!)

News ...

Sooooo rushed the Taj (GA!)
Sooooo lightbulbed the vast majority of Printing Press (1)
TOG all have banking
Sooooo finished Nationalism - if that turns up with Athlete you will know he is a lot of hot air
Ath is Econ in 2
mh is Gunpowder in 3
I am Number 1 in power
You are Number 2 in power

Where are you heading from a tech point of view?

Ruff

[Dreylin]

t103 - Liberalism! Take Steel, obviously, and enter the Industrial Era.

8cities complete builds, so I set them on Research while I recover my Iron. OK, Cannons all round ... longest will take 4t at Edirne & Gaziantep; shortest 1t at Istanbul. I can get 2t Cannon at Bursa during GA, so 4t of Iron should be good. I think that I can probably afford to hold off at Istanbul and complete Sankore instead - due in 3t.

Conf Missionaries head for Konya, Diyarbakir, and Samsun. Konya will spread turn after next, others next turn.

Heisenburg builds an Academy in Istanbul, but that's not enough to bring Nationalism down to 3t, once research has dropped to 90% from lack of funds. I can probably tweak that back down to though with a turn of Research or a couple of hired Scientists somewhere.

With Cannon sprouting from everywhere starting next turn, I feel a switch to Theocracy is in order (next turn). That would drop the completion of Sankore by a turn from losing OrgRel, but that can be recovered with some tile tweaking next turn. Pity that Nat will not come in before the GA ends.