Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Mardoc]

Not that I want to interrupt scooter, but I do have another topic for discussion: assume the war goes relatively well. How do we exit?

I can see a few possibilities:

• Destroy invading stacks after losing a few cities. Offer peace in place. Just looking to minimize the damage here and get back to infrastructure.
  
• Destroy invading stacks, offer status quo ante bellum, plus NAP of some kind. We end up having wasted a bunch of hammers, possibly lost a city or two, but so did the invader. We probably can still win from here if we can get that long period of peace.
  
• Forever war. Destroy invaders, don't retaliate, but make them live for the rest of the game with Statue of Zeus war weariness.
  
• Destroy invaders, attempt to get part of the invading civ in recompense. Either concessions for peace, or we go conquering a few border cities and then make peace. Likely costs more, but our position afterward is better.
  
• Carthago delenda est! Don't stop fighting until the dogpilers are all destroyed. We're on the conqueror's plateau, so we can profit from conquest. This probably requires we stay in total war mode for a long long time. CivFr at least, and possibly others, tech in peace ahead of us. On the other hand, we probably can force NAPs on the rest of the world, or straight up go onward for domination, if we can pull this off.

I'm ignoring 'lose', because we don't get peace if that happens .

I know a lot of this depends on how the war goes, so I don't think we can decide now, I just want people to have it on their mind.

Some things that cross my mind:
Emotionally, I want to destroy them all! But I'm not convinced that'll be possible, and even if it is, it probably requires we spend so much time in total war that the uninvolved civs get way ahead. Realistically, if we want to destroy these teams, it'll be easier to take peace, tech ahead an era, and then come back for round 2.

CFC is probably the easiest to convince to take status quo. They can still win without taking land from us, as long as we're slowed enough by fighting. On the other hand, they're the easiest target for UniverseCiv if we get them to join in.

CivPlayers is probably the only civ we can realistically destroy in this war, because they're the only ones we're ahead of in tech. But then we'd border CivFr. I suspect this one depends on how the other fronts are going and if anyone else has taken peace.

Apolyton is the tricky one. They've invested a lot into the war, they're likely to take at least one city from us, and advancing against rifles will be very difficult unless they make a mistake. I'm afraid we may have to go with one of 'you can keep those two ex-German cities' or forever war.

[scooter]

So, chat with Yossarian from CFC.

scooter
if you happen to be around anytime soon, let me know. wanted to briefly chat with you about something

YossarianLives
Hey scooter, what's up?

scooter
Hey. so I've been kind of brainstorming a bit with a teammate or two
I know when we talked you basically said you weren't real interested in a NAP unless it involved you getting a city
I don't think that's realistic, but I was trying to think of something comparable

YossarianLives
Oh?

scooter
So we thought about it. If you were to give us a lengthy NAP (like 50 turns), we would offer our next great person in return.
that's the absolute best we can do, but I think that's a significant economic boost, which seems to be what you are looking for

YossarianLives
Yeah, that's actually more than I thought you would be willing to offer
Do you know what your next gp should be, and when your expecting it?

scooter
Dang I should have had that number handy when I message'd you, my bad. It's fairly soon, let me check

YossarianLives
Oh no problem
Did you guys get the marble offer last turn?

scooter
Yep, we got it, thanks
I think roughly 10T on the great person. give or take about 4 turns
in the 8-13 turn range I'm pretty sure

YossarianLives
Cool, sorry we had to keep changing the date. Thanks for being understanding about that

scooter
13 is the max anyway, I'm not sure if it will be sped up is what I mean
Yeah no problem

YossarianLives
Ok, that doesn't sound too bad for the GP
Any idea what you're expecting it to be?

scooter
The city is a bit of a blender I think. IIRC, merchant is most likely

YossarianLives
Looks like you're incorporating the German lands into your empire nicely right now

scooter
doing our best anyway. quite a balancing act
anyway, what's your general thought on that? does that even seem like a worthwhile offer to you?

YossarianLives
How was the rest of their dotmap? I know you were saying you were pretty unhappy with parts of it near your border
Well, it's going to get us closer than just releasing the WPC restriction would have
Like I said last time we chatted, I didn't feel like we were too close as far as what we were hoping from you guys and what you'd be willing to offer, but this is more than I would have expected

scooter
good enough. Some of their cities were settled in odd spots, but it's not bad

YossarianLives
It will sway some votes on our team
There are others though that are really against a NAP with you period, just because you're so far ahead

scooter
I understand. My response to that is pretty simple: Our economy is pretty lousy until we integrate stuff, which will take quite a long time. Meanwhile, you have cannons and two fairly soft northern neighbors.
it adds up pretty nicely for you guys in my opinion
"you have cannons" or you will shortly
hm saving gold, mass wealth builds, etc.

YossarianLives
Yeah, exactly. That's the other argument being presented

scooter
Anyway, I dont' like rushing teams, but I will say we need a slightly quicker turn-around on an answer than last time. (not complaining, that was fine, just requesting)
Only because I think the interest in offering the deal would dry up if it wasn't accepted pretty quickly.

YossarianLives
Alright, I'll need the weekend at least
Some key members are out of town this week
But I'll try to get back to you early next week. Will that work?

scooter
Okay that's fine, I understand. Weekend and all
Okay that's fine. I'll check with you on Monday

YossarianLives
Sounds good

My read on this:

1) Decent chance he's kinda BS'ing us. I understand and am aware of this, but it's still worth trying. In the meantime, assume the worst unless we have an agreement in ink.

2) That said, I think he's being honest. If it were just him, I suspect he would take the deal. However, I do think his team is honestly conflicted. And I do think this is a solid offer. I would take it in their shoes and go excute WPC or UCiv or something. It seems a more likely bet to catch up than going all-in on a dogpile where they can't be sure we won't throw everything at them. Or take a bite out of CivFr for that matter.


I do think this is our best bet to avoid a 3v1. Estimated chance of succesS: 30%.

[sunrise089]

@Mardoc - I think if we had the option to dictate terms (and boy do we not) we'd want NAPs and a long time to build infra. We need about 3 buildings per city and the German cities need about 20t of growth onto good tiles and we'd be doing great.

@Scooter - That would be huge if you could swing it! I think it's a stall for time (generally I think "we need ___ time to discuss" means teams plan to say 'no' and are putting it off), but even if the emotion is genuine it's something we could build on. I mean perhaps if 1 GP is promising 2 would clench it? That's a steep price, but it's hard to overstate how much easier (not easy) things would be if we could focus on civplayers and then Apolyton in turn without worrying about the East.

[Mardoc]

@Mardoc - I think if we had the option to dictate terms (and boy do we not)

Yeah, it's clear at least with Apoly and CivPlayers that we have to stop them first, before we have any diplomatic leverage.

I just don't want people to get into a mood where we have to destroy everyone now.

[Brian Shanahan]

Hah. Don't think he could have told me about that teensy little NAP issue TWO DAYS AGO huh? What a clown.

Nap issue is an excuse. I wouldn't be too suprised if it is either non-existent, or still with a wet signature (from being signed after your discussion).

Well we'll just have to show him he has CHOSEN UNWISELY

[Ichabod]

I agree on offering a lot to CFC. Maybe even 2 Great People. We won't be able to get Poly or CPlayers out of the war separately. Civplayers gave Poly gold to fund rifling, it's pretty bovious they have a deal like we had with WPC against the germans (no signing peace alone). CFC is not part of this, most likely. And they haven't commited to Steel yet, they are just stockpiling gold, so this is the best time to try such a deal. But there's the legitimate question of "wouldn't that make CFC capable of reaching and passing us?". In the end, I think the only deal we can sign with them is one where this doubt will be present, they won't be swayed by little. So, we'd have to make this tough decision, NAP for a lot or no NAP and a dogpile? Maybe CFCs plan all along is to conquer UCiv or WPC with Cannons, but they are really using the cold war scenario wisely.

BUT, if we get this deal with CFC, the Poly + CPlayers coallition is doomed. They'll really feel the blow on their chances and lose morale, I'm sure. So, I think it's worth trying even with 2 GPs. We just have to trust our ability to outplay them on the lategame when they'll have tech, traits and Golden Age advantages.

Not sure if you saw it before scooter, but I suggested that we try to buy/ask for Poly and Civplayers graphs from another team. Do you think that's possible? Maybe ask UCiv and WPC if they have those.

[pindicator]

We have no guarantee that we are the target either. UCiv makes a lot more sense geopolitically

[sunrise089]

@pindicator - We have no guarantee, but if we're not the target AND we're offering an incentive to sign a NAP with us, you'd think they'd agree to one. They're may lose their chance if they wait much longer. I guess on the other hand they could be waiting to see how Poly and Civplayers do versus us before committing either way...

@Ichabod - I like the idea of buying graphs. I don't know that we have a lot to offer, but it would be nice to have.

@Scooter - I'm sure you've thought of this, but we can effectively offer CFC a carrot and a stick. GPs or other concessions to sign a NAP, but if they don't we might remind them that our border city on their side is very important to us, and that we're likely to concentrate our defenses there. Anything we can do to make them think Apolyton has more to gain from the war going forward than they do...

[MWIN]

Can we follow up with UnivCiv again? At least to make plans for tomorrow's chat timings.

Also, can we ask CivFr for some money (same deal as UnivCiv). I think CivFr asked for money when we offered to help them vs CFC (ofcourse they never followed it up with numbers). We can do the same thing.

While we are asking, why not ask WPC. Every little bit helps...

[DaveV]

If we want some roads pillaged within our territory, can we persuade another team to do it for us? I know we're not on the best terms with WPC, but maybe we could offer to pay them, say, 10 gold per pillaged road tile?