Yes EitB elves are strong. But their strength is in the late game economy. I'm not saying its supposed to be unopposed, but there's no need to take away a unit to effect that. Mary Morbius is not a resource there's no reason for them to be unable to get. This was understandable when it was an event, but as a buildable hero, there's no reason they should be unable to get her.
Given that it's the status quo, what is your reason for removing the building?
Is it to stop them getting Morbius, or is it because their economy is too strong?
I'm not understanding you.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
In starting, I edited my initial post and perhaps that is answer enough, but I will answer your questions more specifically here.
1) Alchemy Labs are NOT the status quo. They were added for the elves to greedily give them access to Mary while denying other civs the same favor
2) I would 'prefer' that the Elves be returned to the status quo because of their insane economy not needing any further aid. The primary driving force behind my proposition is that the Elves are already strong enough to not need an extra economic building just for the sake of Mary. Hell, I'd be fine if they had a UB of the Lab that does absolutely nothing other than to allow access to Mary Morbus.
3) I find it unfair that the elves are given Mary Morbus love while certain other civs, such as the Doviello, Hippus, and Clan, are still without Mary Morbus love or Alchemy lab love.
4) the Status Quo is for Dovi, Hippus, Clan, AND both elves to not have access to Alchemy labs (for different reasons of course). I would prefer to go back to the Status Quo for economic reasons, but if it must remain for military reasons then I think all civs should be treated equally and fairly in this respect (Mary Morbus).
So in answer to your question, I do not think that the Elves deserve the building on merit of economics alone, and if it is an alternate reason for their getting the building, then in my opinion NO ONE should go without said building.
1) Alchemy labs are the CURRENT status quo for the elves, and I believe that they should be justified for losing them because of this. I'm not sure why they were added though, and a search doesn't really give any reasons.
2) I don't believe that the economy is boosted THAT MUCH by alchemy labs, and again, their strength IS their economy, they don't really have anything else. The point of elves is that they are slow to start up, but can get the best economy in the game after a while of build up and weak early game. Now, it could be argued that their early game has been boosted sufficiently to remove that weakness, but again that is irrelevant to this - my point is that their entire strength is economy, they don't have "overpowered" late game toys (amurites) or an "overpowered" production advantage (Clan), instead they have an "overpowered" economy. And IMO the Alchemy Lab has very little to do with that, and comes late enough (and is expensive enough) to have little effect on their game.
3) So? Why can't Calabim get libraries? Their not overpowered any more so why not? Why do Dovellio get away without training yards, when Ljolsofar have to build them. To heasitate a thought as to why this is, it may be that all of those civs are tilted towards slow research or early game advantages, and certainly none are really "flavored" towards that part of the tree, which is the opposite for Ljolsofar/Svartalfar.
4) Personally, I agree that all civs should have access to her. I don't nessecarily think that other civs should get labs though.
Quote:When you add leaders like Volanna, their early game weaknesses are largely removed as well.
Which is why she is getting patched out and/or banned.
Please don't edit your posts as a way of discussing something
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
I'm not sure what the reasoning is on why the Hippus can't build alchemy labs. For the Doviello/Clan, it seems thematic (like their inability to build libraries).
While I do agree that the elves got a lot of love in EitB, enabling alchemy labs for them seems appropriate. Both elven civs actually have arcane leaders! Allowing the Ljosalfar to benefit economically from the Arcane line helps to bring Thessa up to par with Arendel, for example.
As for libraries and alchemy labs, Doviello can't build them because they suck and are destined to suck forever, while the Clan can't build them because hamstringing their research is the only thing keeping them from being overpowered and even then it doesn't really work to that end.
That's how I understood it anyway. Hippus not being able to building alchemy labs I don't get really.
I always thought a lack of Alchemy Labs for the Elves was thematic as well, similar to their lack of seige ... its experiments seen as too 'unnatural' for the pristine elven psyche.
It just so happens that the building, while being potentially unthematic, is just highly synergistic with certain elven strategies.
Now onto the Hippus, I think that at least they should have access to Alchemy labs. Their lack of Arquebus, Cannon, and Alchemy Labs always seemed strange. While perhaps I can accept their fighting style is more old-school, not wishing to resort to gunpowder based weaponry, they also have a mercenary nature, and mercenaries typically are not willing to let pride get in the way of advantage and success ... so it does seem strange that they don't have access to those units.
(unless they are just so prideful to not equate gunpowder usage with winning). Not that those are the best units in the game necessarily, just that I always found it odd that they were lacking with the Hippus. The only thing I can see here is the Takeda clan using mounted units vs the Oda clan using musket units ... but if the Hippus are truly some combination of Apache Riders (warcry), Polish Riders (white), and Mongols/Huns (Horse Archers) ... then I see no reason to not be able to, or love to, fire guns from horseback. If anything at gunpowder instead of the regular Arquebus they should get a National Unit instead (with max of 4 I guess, or maybe more?) which is something to the effect of a Comanshe rider. Perhaps something to the effect of 4 move, 10 str, 40% withdrawal, 2 first strikes, immune to first strikes. If a national limit of 4 .. perhaps the defining characteristic should be to allow defensive bonuses? To represent if they dismount during the defense? --> if NOT a national unit, then it should perhaps also require stirrups. HAs would upgrade to them.
Still, on the subject of borderline thematics, I think that the Hippus should definitely have Alchemy Labs. Or rather, if the elves have Labs, I see no reason to deny the Hippus. There is just not a strong enough reason for them not to have them, imho, and now with Mary Morbus the case is only made stronger.
One issue I've run into in my first single-player game of EitB v9 is that I am unable to defend my forts. Owning Nox Noctis, my units are invisible and even if I have them cast Reveal, the Shroud of Esus is placed back on them before my opponent's turn. Thus, my opponents gleefully walk into my fort as if I'm not even there.
(August 8th, 2013, 13:58)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Regardless of the theme, you have to admit that elves are encouraged to invest in the arcane line where Hippus are not.
Dovellio don't suck, they got huge improvements in EitB.
Just because something is Synergistic does not mean that it is balanced.
