[SPOILERS] Team Orgynized: Parkin/Arki/Magno embark on a kinky adventure

[Lord Parkin]

Okay, so here's a more careful sim out to T41, when the first Settler can be easily produced. (Actually we can produce him a turn earlier in some of the situations, but leaving him at 99/100 maximizes overflow if we're going directly into Stonehenge.) Tweaked things I missed the first time around, like finishing the Work Boat on a 2f/1h tile so we grow a turn earlier. I'm assuming our first city will likely require Agriculture, so we need to have it around the time our first Settler is done regardless of the start.

Every start goes with the build order Work Boat -> Worker -> Warrior (partial) -> Worker -> Warrior (finish) -> Warrior -> Settler, and the tech order Hunting -> AH -> (Mining if necessary) -> BW -> Mysticism -> (Wheel if necessary) -> (Agriculture if necessary) for comparison.

Option 1: The Fishing/Mining start leaves us with the least beakers at T41 (22 into Agriculture), which is not surprising because Mining is a cheaper starting tech than the alternatives. It's equally good to the Fishing/Agriculture start in terms of hammers.

Option 2: The Fishing/Wheel start leaves us with slightly more beakers at T41 (41 into Agriculture). However it's slightly worse than the other two options in terms of hammers, because the first chop begins 2 turns later which means we're building the second Warrior for longer before starting the Settler. (Both the other starts allow for a very nicely timed chop which finishes the second Warrior with exactly the maximum 15 hammer overflow into the Settler.)

Option 3: The Fishing/Agriculture start puts us in the best situation with respect to beakers at T41 (64 into Wheel), because of the bonus research rate on Animal Husbandry. It's identical to Fishing/Mining in terms of hammers, giving the best overall output.

So the options are very close, but it looks like we should go for a Fishing/Agriculture civ if possible. All other things equal, it puts us in the situation with the most beakers and hammers at T41. The only way it wouldn't be the optimum choice would be if we were sure we wouldn't have grain resources for any of our early cities, but that seems very unlikely. Grain will almost certainly be a relevant resource for our second city, so we'll likely have to research Agriculture by T45 in both the other situations anyway.

If we can't get a good Fishing/Agriculture civ, then Fishing/Wheel is probably the next best option (-23 beakers, -3 hammers), followed by Fishing/Mining (-42 beakers, -0 hammers). There are five good civs out of that bunch, so no way we won't get one of them.

[Lord Parkin]

I think Care Bears is going to be very happy with their India pick - they're basically guaranteed to get a good FIN leader with it.

Yeah, they'll have at least one out of Elizabeth/Hannibal/Victoria available. Though they may go for an Expansive leader like Bismarck/Isabella/Mehmed instead.

Just noticed there are now only 2 civs to be picked ahead of us, so we can get one of our top three. Probably Netherlands, Japan, or England/Rome. Native America would be alright as well I suppose - great techs, though UU/UB very centred on the early game. I doubt we'll lack for resources, and early rushing is likely to be suicide in the long term, so Dog Soldiers won't have much of a purpose. America also has the right techs, but I don't know if it's worth having a completely blank slate with regards to UU/UB.

[WilliamLP]

Yeah, finishing the work boat with 2f/1h seems clearly best because it allows being size 2 on T22, growing onto improved sheep, and size 3 on T25, both with exact food. And the hammer overflow doesn't speed up the worker.

I'm really interested in how to decide when to build a first settler.

Here's a devil's advocate build:

- On growth to size 3, spend 1 turn before deer is improved on the 3h tile.
- Warrior finishes EOT 28, start settler at size 4.
- Chop, but delay 1T (prebuild a mine).
- Settler is available T37 (it could also be T36, but I don't think we can get Myst until T37)

(I forgot the grass hill forest 2W of the capital was a random growth, pretend I chopped the one 1W of the capital instead.)

- Another chop goes into Henge:

This would delay a turn if switching to slavery while the settler is in transit.

Now this is obviously short a worker, a warrior, and many worker turns including two mines. And defense against early poke aggression is sketchy with one warrior only. But the settler earlier has advantages and this is a really early Henge that would be nearly impossible to beat without someone going for it before a settler (which would destroy the game for them economically).

Other points:

- If we're the only IND leader that would be a real coup since it's value is inverse to how many have it. It even would have denial value since others would be hesitant to go for a wonder and risk failure if there's an IND leader out there who could conceivably get it first.

- Because of being IND, maybe consider taking the short term disadvantage settling 1N because forests in the capital BFC are really valuable later?

- GLH is so good that some RB games ban it. With IND and a fishing start we'd probably be best positioned to grab it. Maybe an extreme micro plan that gets it is worth considering? (E.g. even sailing + masonry before pottery). In other RB games it has fallen around turn 58-60 when someone has really committed to it.

I have no idea of what the right answers are and I lack practical experience but I enjoy the discussions.

[Lord Parkin]

1. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone) - Pacal II
2. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous - Darius
3. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking) - Willem
4. Bowsling / Aivoturso - Mansa Musa
5. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101) - Huayna Capac
6. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking) - Inca
7. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons - India
8. Dick76 / DMOC - Suryavarman II
9. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud - Sumeria
10. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking) - Ragnar
11. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking) - Rome
12. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud - Napoleon
13. Dick76 / DMOC - Byzantium
14. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons - Victoria
15. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking) - Isabella
16. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101) - Netherlands
17. Bowsling / Aivoturso
18. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
19. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous
20. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone)

Man, a whole bunch of picks in a row... a lot to comment on.

Barteq/Geo/Harami are Ragnar of Rome - the combination we were jokingly considering ourselves. Slightly scary to start next to, as they're likely to have the Iron they'll need on a hand-made map. But on the other hand, Iron Working takes a while to get to if you're still going for your Worker techs, so won't be able to start building them for a while. Plus Praetorians are more expensive than Axes, so all other things equal you can build 45/35 = 1.3 Axes for every Praetorian. More actually, because the defender has the advantage of whipping and movement while a Praetorian stack is slow. Still, it would basically ruin your game to defend against such a stack early on, so best not to face it if at all possible. All civs that don't start with these guys as their neighbours will breathe a sigh of relief. I'm going to predict that they won't win with this pick though, since even if they're successful with an early Praetorian war (which they're obviously heavily inclined towards since otherwise Aggressive is a bit of a waste) the other nations will have plenty of time to band up against them.

Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony (Classical_Hero/Halvgud) are Napoleon of Sumeria. Not bad I suppose, but they could have done a lot better. I'm going to go with a hunch here and presume Halvgud did not overrule Classical_Hero's opinions. Not expecting these guys to finish in first place.

Dick76/DMOC are Sury of Byzantium - Individually quite potent picks, and a nice mini-synergy on the Hippodrome (a 20 hammer building with Creative + Forge + Organized Religion!). Their main downside is a non-Financial leader amidst a pool of 7/10 Financial leaders. Cataphracts will be scary if this team survives to the middle stages of the game, but all other things equal, most other civs will be a little further ahead due to the Financial trait so perhaps better equipped to deal with a Cataphract invasion.

Team Care Bears (Yuufo/Bisons) are Victoria of India. I'm not seeing the synergy here. Imperialistic isn't great on a high maintenance map, and the starting techs (assuming similar starts) will actually mean they're behind everyone else for at least the first 50 turns. On the other hand, a Financial India is nothing to sniff at, so perhaps they'll do well for themselves in the long run.

Team Blame Caledorn (YossarianLives/Caledorn/Scooter/Old Harry/Cheater Hater) are Isabella of Inca. A nice solid pick, though I might have chosen Bismarck or Mehmed in their situation. I expect they'll do well, particularly once they reach the mid-game where Spiritual comes into power. Again, one of only 3/10 teams with no Financial trait though, which may hurt them a bit.

[Lord Parkin]

All leaders have now been chosen, so let's have a look at the traits.

Financial - 7 (Pacal, Darius, Willem, Mansa, Huayna, Ragnar, Victoria)
Expansive - 3 (Pacal, Sury, Isabella)
Organized - 2 (Darius, Napoleon)
Creative - 2 (Willem, Sury)
Spiritual - 2 (Mansa, Isabella)
Aggressive - 1 (Ragnar)
Charismatic - 1 (Napoleon)
Imperialistic - 1 (Victoria)
Industrious - 1 (Huayna)
Philosophical - 0
Protective - 0

Sweet... we're the only Industrious nation! Best situation we could have hoped for there.

Aside from Financial, all the other traits are spread pretty thin. Three teams will pack a bit of an extra early culture punch (2 Creative leaders and Isabella of Inca), and we're likely to start next to at least one of them. Not a bit deal if there's plenty of room between civs though. Three teams will have Workers a few turns earlier and slightly faster starts - though not significantly faster if their terrain and resources are similar to ours. Two teams will be able to make use of cheaper Courthouses (or Ziggurats) on a relatively high maintenance map, which will be nice for them. Cheaper Lighthouses will also be nice for them, since they're almost certain to have coastal starts too. (Fortunately no Roosevelt, so we still have the overall hammer advantage on the Great Lighthouse even against Organized teams - 60+134 vs 30+200.) Two teams will be able to make use of regular civic switches mid-game. Fortunately the overpowered spy missions are banned so this won't really affect us much.

Interesting that Aggressive, Imperialistic and Charismatic were chosen while Philosophical was not. Wouldn't have picked that. Otherwise no real surprise with Protective being shown no love.

[Lord Parkin]

So with Huayna Capac of the Netherlands, what does that mean?

• Financial (+1 commerce on tiles with 2 commerce)
  
• Industrious (+100% on Forge, +50% on wonders)
  
• Fishing (64 beakers)
  
• Agriculture (96 beakers)
  
• East Indiaman (Galleon with +1 cargo, +2 strength, ability to enter rival territory without Open Borders)
  
• Dike (Levee that gives a hammer bonus on lakes and coast in addition to rivers, can be built anywhere touching a lake or coast in addition to rivers)

Basically, once we reach Astronomy and particularly Steam Power, we're set. Our UU wins nicely in direct battles against rival Galleons, and our UB is ridiculously overpowered despite the fact that it comes relatively late. If it's a toss up between us and another civ at that point in the game though, Dikes will easily push us over the edge. Mass-build Dikes + Golden Age = super-Moai in every coastal city.

[WilliamLP]

1. Choose Netherlands.
2. ???
3. Reach Steam Power!
4. Profit!!!

[Arkipeller]

1. Choose Netherlands.
2. ???
3. Reach Steam Power!
4. Profit!!!

Heh. It seems that we got a good combo for me. I tried to play as Huyana of Netherlands yesterday and it went ok.
Our disadvantage is that people consider Parkin as a very good player, so diplo may get hard (but not impossible)

[WilliamLP]

Hmm, Care Bears missed their chance to re-enact PB2 with a Lizzy of India pick. I'm pretty surprised she wasn't taken by anyone.

I don't really get the Napoleon of Sumeria pick. I guess I just don't see building courthouses earlier as that big a deal. At that point in the game there aren't many spare hammers going around for extra infrastructure that only yields a couple of gpt - you really need military first! So they cost 45 instead of 60, yeah that's nice but is that worth giving up a FIN leader for? Or even an Exp leader like Mehmed - that way you save 30 hammers for every city (granary) plus about 12 for every worker, plus the health bonus is really nice too.

I also don't know if I've ever seen Byzantium shine in a PB, with the awful starting techs. Sury has arguably the fastest early game traits so clearly Dick / DMOC want to power through to cataphracts and assert dominance there. I guess that isn't crazy. If they have a double-grain start than I guess they can make it work as long as the lack of worker techs doesn't slow them down. Still it's painful how slow you get Bronze with a Myst / Wheel start, no matter what happens.

Getting the only IND leader in the game is phenomenal. Netherlands is pretty clear - America is useless and Native America has a UU that makes you wonder if it's even better than what it replaces, though it does give the ability to build Dog Soldiers without metal.

The East Indiaman would be a definite advantage post Astronomy. The feature to scout and traverse closed borders is an interesting one!

[antisocialmunky]

Pretty nice picks, I look forward to the wonder whoring.