[SPOILER] Ikhanbod

[T-hawk]

Yes, I've done exactly that in single player - delay the 7th social policy by annexing cities until Rationalism is unlocked.

[Ichabod]

I was reading random threads in CFC Civ 5 forum and I find some useful piece of information. The ToA 10% bonus food actually applies to total food, not surplus food, like every other % food bonus. So, it's actually way better than my first impression of it and it explains why Azza always had such a high food number. That's certainly a reason for me to try and take Azza's Capital, it'll add quite a bit of food to my empire.

I captured Markarth, by the way, and I killed 5 CBs and a pikeman without losing a single unit. I actually changed my builds to non-military stuff now, because I don't think I need any more units (maintanance is starting to be felt). I was afraid that my non-ranged units wouldn't be able to capture Azza's cities without heavy losses, but that proved to be incorrect.

Report with pictures to come later, after I finished playing my turn (I'm halfway through it, having played the military stuff already).

[Ichabod]

How do you know Valletta can produce longbowmen? Is that shown in-game anywhere? I've seen UUs from militaristic city-states but have never known the rules for it.

This is the overview from where I found out that Valletta can produce longbowmen. Not sure if it works that way in all situations or if I just got lucky.

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This is a picture of the battle of Markarth, my Knight attacking the city after the Keshiks reduced the HP of the city to zero.




That attack was enough for me to capture Markarth, killing a pikeman in the process too (I think I killed a pikeman... I'm not so sure after seeing the SS).




That's a lot of remaining infra, everything I could ask for. Petra is a good wonder on this city, not spectacular. It'll be useful while I need to stagnate the city's growth due to lack of happiness, working the hills to build a courthouse. Speaking of which, I'll buy a courthouse in Whiterun with my next 500 gold, since the city would take ages to build one by itself.




Seeing as the war is basically already over (only thing Azza can do to make my life really hard is building the Great Wall - right now, though, even that wouldn't be enough, I think), I changed my builds to non-military stuff (there are a pike and a Keshik that I can 1-turn in Sentenza and Blondie). I need to focus on happiness right now, since I'm taking a heavy toll with the new cities + annexing penalty (there's 10 unhappiness right now that need courthouses to go away), so I'm building circuses where possible. The worker is part of a plan to finish the University in 2 turns after education in the Capital. And the library in Sentenza is to allow the National College to be built in Harmonica.

Another of my plans to fix the happy situation is to use a Khan's ability to steal territory.




If I build a Citadel west of the dyes, would I get the silk and dyes into my territory? I think so, though I'm not sure. And if that happens, would I lose influence/get declared by the CSs? If I manage that, I can lose the Ally status with Valletta and Jerusalem and not lose any happiness (and I don't need more faith and military anyway).




Next step in the war is to capture Windhelm, with its brand new Wat. That's another powerful city, hopefully it'll keep the library and wat (which will become a University, I believe). My recent combats lead me to believe that I can capture the city without that much trouble, even If I need to attack it across the river and on a hill, if I can reduce its HP to 0 and have a Khan near. I'll try to get some Pikes in range of an attack, hopefully one or two that don't need to cross the river to do it.

Capturing this city will certainly make my Civ unhappy. I think that the capture gold will fund a Courthouse in Whiterun, so maybe it won't be so bad.




Capturing Markarth also gave me some good hammer tiles to work with my 4th city, Tuco. This city will be pretty powerful in the long run: I'm planning to get granary, watermill, library and university, making it a science city, full of farms and jungle.

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I'm working on the plan to get Rationalism as my 7th SP, but I'm not sure if that's going to be manageable. I'm avoiding working jungle tiles wherever possible, even if that means losing some gold. It'll depend if I can really improve my science rate with an University in the Capital (my calculations show that I'll produce more science in the Capital alone than all the sceince I produce right now, after an university, but I'm not sure if that's going to be enough). It'll also depend if I can keep capturing Azza's cities quickly and if I can manage to annex them.




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Demographics:




These are looking very, very good, even if the Average is being held back due to Azza's demos. Interesting to notice that Oledavy actually has less power than Azza, even after I dizimated Azza's army... It seems I and Azza were the only ones that went for a more military oriented gameplay...

By the way, my literacy is bad because I've made long beelines, going for Guilds and Education while leaving useless (for my situation) cheap techs. I'm gunning for Banking after Education, to get into the Renaissance age and open the Forbidden Palace wonder. After that, I'll backfill things a bit.

Harmonica, my Capital:

[Rowain]

Another of my plans to fix the happy situation is to use a Khan's ability to steal territory.




If I build a Citadel west of the dyes, would I get the silk and dyes into my territory? I think so, though I'm not sure. And if that happens, would I lose influence/get declared by the CSs? If I manage that, I can lose the Ally status with Valletta and Jerusalem and not lose any happiness (and I don't need more faith and military anyway).

You can't build a citadel west of the dyes currently as the tile you want to build it has to be either in your territory or adjacent to it (= you need to get either the tile in your culture with the Monaco-warrior on it or the one east of it). If you manage to do that and build the citadel you will get both silk and dyes. And you will lose a lot of influence with both Monaco and Valetta but since you are positive right now none will drop far enough to declare war.

[Ichabod]

Since I'll win a culture quest to get even more influence with Valletta, I'll use my Citadel to grab only the silks. It's either that or actually befriending Monaco...

I expect to have a bit of a harsh happiness phase, especially if my opponents decide to cancel trades with me. But between happy buildings I can build, courthouses and hopefully The Forbidden Palace and Taj Mahal (starts a GA, +4 happiness), I think I'll be fine soon enough.

Notre Dame (+10 happiness) would also be amazing, but I don't expect to get it, so I won't prioritize it. Oledavy probably wants it and could be heading that way. The bottom part of my tech tree is pretty empty.

Regarding techs, I'm thinking of going Banking (Forbidden Palace) -> (maybe Metal Casting, through Masonry, Construction, Engineering, IW - lots of fairly cheap techs, with lots of already research bonuses) -> Acoustics (pre-req) -> Architecture (Porcelain Tower - gives a Free GSci - and Taj Mahal).

After that, I don't know... Maybe fertilizers to improve the food of non-riverside farms/plantations/pastures and hammer of mines (through its prereq chemestry). I'll have to think...

[T-hawk]

Chemistry - Fertilizer is usually a pretty good midgame beeline. That the bonuses kick in and work immediately is a major factor, compared to investing 500+ hammers in a wonder to get any use from a technology. You also get cannons along the way.

[Ichabod]

Chemistry - Fertilizer is usually a pretty good midgame beeline. That the bonuses kick in and work immediately is a major factor, compared to investing 500+ hammers in a wonder to get any use from a technology. You also get cannons along the way.

I agree. I think Banking needs to be teched, both to open Rationalism and getting the Forbidden Palace, that seems to be a great wonder. Though I don't know exactly how much happy bonus I'd get. Next turn I'll have 40 citizens in non-occupied cities, which gives 30 unhappy (Capital is size 20, but gets less unhappy due to SPs). Would I get 4 happy from the FP, considering this numbers? Just 3 happy? Considering that I'll soon be adding ~20 citizens when I finish courthouses in captured cities, I guess it can be worth the hammers. Especially since I could very much be hitting a happiness bottleneck.

But after Banking, maybe going chemistry -> Fertilizers before Architecture can work. The Porcelain tower is a free tech, in some ways (even more, if I'm correct that a GSci gives the amount of beakers your Civ generated in the last 8 turns). And Taj Mahal would give me a beefed GA and happiness... I'll have to think...

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Turn 88 Report:

Turn greeted me with very good news, after I managed to understand what they meant.




The city of Markarth adopted a religion. That was Pindicator's religion, Zoroastrianism, if I recall correctly, not Azza's. That is good news because Pindicator's Follower belief is the Pagodas' one. So, if I cultivate Pindicator's religion in my cities, I can buy Pagodas, which are buildings that give 2 culture, 2 faith and 2 happiness (no maintenance) and cost 130 faith (not that much). Exactly when I needed happiness the most. Culture will be focused a little bit more after I manage to open rationalism (I'm actually working worse tiles right now to avoid getting culture), so it'll also help. And faith will help me buy more Pagodas!




If I understand the religion overview in cities correctly, I think most of my cities are getting pressured to adopt Pindicator's religion, so maybe I can get this benefit even without producing missionaries.

By the way, do I lose the Pagodas if my cities get rid of Pindicator's religion? Or do I keep them?

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After thinking of it for some time, I think I can manage to get Rationalism as my 7th SP, if I do things carefully. As of this turn, I'd take 3 turns to get to the 7th SP, but I'm pretty sure I can capture Windhelm in this 3 turns (if I can't do it, I won't be able to complete my plan).

I wanted to see how many turns I needed to tech Banking, my renaissance tech. Lets see.




I need 11 turns to get there, according to the Tech tree, but I'm pretty sure I can make it way faster.




Interestingly enough, I'm 1 beaker short of completing Education this turn. That means I'll dump 56 overflow into Banking next turn, almost a full turn of research. Since Banking cost 522 science, I need to see how fast I can produce 466 science in the next turns.

The big new factor will come from my Capital:




Just by growing a pop point in the end of turn, it'll get to 33 science per turn. After that, I'll finish the University in 2 turns -> I'm overflowing 33 hammers into the next build, while the University costs 107. So, I need 74 hammers in the next two turns, which will definetely be manageable (the city produces 39 hammers as of this turn, sicne it counts the 20 pop point, that'll go to the unimproved hill).

University gives +33% science, 2 scientist slots and 2 science per jungle tile. Without taking jungle into account, due to the fact that I'm avoiding culture, the city will get 4 science from the 2 specialists (37 bpt) and +33% science (37 + 12 = 49 bpt). That's a sizeable 16 beakers increase to be had in 2 turns.

Considering I'm finishing a library in Sentenza in 2 turns (+4 beakers) and Markarth will come out of revolt in 3 turns (+6 science), even without considering other increases (worked jungle, other cities growing), I managed to get to 456 beakers in 6 turns, which will easily be upped to 466, even if I have to build science somewhere. This means that I need 7 turns to reach Banking, counting the turn I just played.

Now, the next SP would come in 3 turns. I need to delay it for 4 more turns. Luckily, my GA is ending in 3 turns, which will decrease my SP culture by 20%. I hope caturing Windhelm will up the SP cost enough to delay me for 4 turns. It says in the culture tooltip that a new city would increase SP costs by 15%. That'd mean 477 culture needed from 415 right now. I'm currently producing 16 culture (14 natural + 2 GA) and I have 381 culture. In three turns, I'll have 381 + 48 (16*3) = 429/415, so I need to capture Windhelm before that. If Windhelm gets me to 477 culture needed, I'll be in 471 culture in 3 turns (429 + 14 . 3). So, I'd get my new SP in 7 turns, just as needed.

Thing is, after I captured Whiterun, the SP cost went from 345 to 380 (35 culture increase), and after I captured Markarth it went from 380 to 415 (35 culture increase). So, i'm pretty sure that 15% increase is based in something other than the current culture number needed. So, I'd actually go from 415 to 450 culture needed after capturing Windhelm, which would mean that I'd get the SP in 6 turns, not the needed 7.

This means that I can either 1. Capture Solitude before 6 turns pass; 2. Build science in someway that makes me reach Banking in 6 turns, not 7 (after looking at my math, I'll actually get to 450 culture in 5 turns, not 6, making everything even more difficult).

Can I do this? I'm not sure... Solitude is in a really defensible position, though I have a ton of units near it, which are incredibly mobile. Markarth had walls and my Knight captured it just fine, if I can capture Windhelm next turn (hill city, across a river) with the same knight, I'm pretty sure there's nothing Azza can put in Solitude that will stop me (I can easily reduce the city HP to 0). My Pikes can also reach the city, at least in easier fashion than Windhelm. It'll depend if I can capture Windhelm next turn, I think.

Regarding science, I'll take a look next turn, after education, when I can already build science. I'll have to take into account the science from jungle compared to its culture.

Another difficulty is having to annex Windhelm and Solitude, regarding happiness. Capturing Windhelm will give me Citrus (since I'm trading away mine) and money to get rid of 3 unhappiness in Whiterun through a bought Courthouse. That's 7 happiness from Windhelm, which is not enough even to annex the city itself. I'm getting 2 circuses soon + a bought Pagoda as soon as Markarth comes out of revolt, getting 6 happiness. Hopefully I get enough XP for a second Khan, to steal the Silks from Monaco.

Anyway, it's not that bad, especially since I only need to annex the cities on the turn the SP would come online. Besides, most of my cities are currently stagnating. I only want to avoid getting to unhappiness while my Capital is on WLTKD, which will end in 6 turns. Well, maybe I'll lose a turn or two of it, but that's not too bad - since I think I can get to positive happiness not that long after.

Enough rambling...

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Here's the War Theater after my units attacked (most of my Keshiks couldn't hit the city and get away of return fire, so I only moved them closer - I'm confident I can reduce the city to 0 HP next turn). I moved a Pikeman close to the city, not sure if he's going to survive until next turn and even if he does, I don't think he'll get enough XP for a promo and will be to weak to attack. That'll leave me only with a Knight to attack the city, that is not fully healed and needs to cross a river... If that's not enough/too risky, I'll have to move some more pikeman close and that will be slow...

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Happiness overview:




Demographics:

[MJW (ya that one)]

I'm pretty sure that you don't lose the Pandas but I'm not totally sure...

[Ichabod]

Quick question, when do the bonuses from City States increase? I think they increased when I reached Medieval Age, will they increase again on Renaissance?

[T-hawk]

Next turn I'll have 40 citizens in non-occupied cities, which gives 30 unhappy (Capital is size 20, but gets less unhappy due to SPs). Would I get 4 happy from the FP, considering this numbers? Just 3 happy?

I believe the FP anger reduction is multiplicative with Monarchy's, as in population * 0.5 * 0.9 in the capital. So 3 not 4 in this case.

By the way, do I lose the Pagodas if my cities get rid of Pindicator's religion? Or do I keep them?

I'm not sure. I think I remember once losing a building of a foreign religion after reconverting the city. But I've definitely seen buildings of my own religion persist after an enemy prophet conversion then reconversion.

It says in the culture tooltip that a new city would increase SP costs by 15%. That'd mean 477 culture needed from 415 right now.

Not exactly:

Thing is, after I captured Whiterun, the SP cost went from 345 to 380 (35 culture increase), and after I captured Markarth it went from 380 to 415 (35 culture increase). So, i'm pretty sure that 15% increase is based in something other than the current culture number needed.

This is correct, each city adds 15% of the base, not 15% of the current value. So each city will continue to add 35. (Roughly, since culture thresholds are rounded to a multiple of 5. It could come out to 30 or 40 depending on the rounding.)

You can also sell culture buildings to delay culture, although not the free monuments from Legalism.

Quick question, when do the bonuses from City States increase? I think they increased when I reached Medieval Age, will they increase again on Renaissance?

No. Medieval and Industrial.