WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[Qgqqqqq]

GG serdoa
I agree that gazglum and jkaen look a bit worse after that. I agree with novice that he has seemed rather focussed on one target. I would like to hear more thoughts from matt though.
I'm not sure I really understand your play MJW - what is your stance on zak? Is it a weak read that merely noticing that classical_hero had 4 posts was enough to shift you, or was it simply that you couldn't get support?
If the former, why not mattimeo, who also had 4?

[Gazglum]

So, the musikalsk-vognfeste is clanking its way towards me now, eh? One day you will both be wolves, and when that happens the village will burn.

I can’t speak for other wolves, but I agree that my instinct last time was to just kill my accusers. So maybe Wolfglum would take such a path, though I can’t be sure because I’m not in touch with that side of my personality this game. What would NoviceWolf have done? After all, you were the last person Serdoa was pressuring before he died.

It’s lazy to say I had tunnel vision on Mattimeo. Compared to what? I looked through the day and went with who I thought was most likely to be scum. I stuck with him because, as you said yourself, there weren’t many good cases, and his responses to me weren’t that convincing.

#68: Questions my wording, joins the leading MJW bandwagon
#70: Not very helpful advice about googling mafiosa on mountains, says I misunderstood his question (which I hadn’t, it was the rhetorical/diversion nature of it that had pinged my scumar in the first place)

Then I had to go to bed. I was comfortable sitting there. I’ve said a lot of times that I don’t think scum are the ones talking wild theories or super lurking on Day 1, they’re more likely to play like Mattimeo, Serdoa or Novice were – chiming in without rocking the boat. You may disagree with that, but I have form arguing that in previous games.

Besides that I said would vote for Azarius as well, and I placed an early pressure vote on Q. I didn’t comment on Classical Hero because he wasn’t on the radar until after I’d gone to bed. As far as I remember, that leaves MJW’s attack on Zak, which I didn’t take very seriously, and Serdoa’s on MJW.

I didn’t think the MJW attack was a good one. Serdoa called me scummy for ignoring the case, because he thought MJW is being different:

That's pretty much one of the worst posts I've read so far in this game (together with Jkaens). Gazglum completely ignores what several people have listed as reason to vote for MJW, which is exactly that his behaviour in this game is NOT similar to his normal behaviour. Now I don't say he has to agree with that assessment. But not arguing that point, not even mentioning it, is scummy. It might very well be that MJW is a villager, but Gazglums defense here reads more like a wolf finding an easy point to make, hoping to earn village brownie points.

Maybe he’s right, I haven’t played with MJW enough to know him really well, and I admit I skim read some of his posts. But, he still seemed to be acting pretty similarly to my memories of him in WW25, where he WAS innocent and WAS lynched. It would piss me off no end if that happened again, so I urged you not to vote him. Telling you would regret it was a little bit of Rhetoric, because I really think MJW would have been a bad and lazy lynch. CH was a lazy choice too, but defensible as a policy lynch.

Plus I think MJW did make a few reasonable points yesterday, like post #52,

“The problem is not that the average has to be around 1. It would have to be exactly 1 for Zak's plan to work.”

I didn’t think MJW was scummy and since other people were chasing that wagon so I looked elsewhere. Also, Serdoa posted after I was in bed, or I would have responded to him at the time.

What I like even less is the start of his post. I think when Gazglum is a wolf he has often issues to attack others that he know are innocent. And that starting sentence of his posts reads exactly like that: Feeling guilty for attacking someone he already know is innocent.

I always feel a bit bad attacking people I know –might- be innocent. I think Matt is more likely than most to be scum, but still might not be. The issue I had when I was scum was making attacks in the first place, not in being overly polite while doing so. The last time I was accused of that (plunging the knife in while hushing my victim, was it Novice?) was WW24, where I was innocent.

Bored of defense now, I want to think about attack again. I don’t want to be a tunneler, so Novice you can hang onto my vote for me until I have a reread.

Tunneling is also useful since you don't have to keep looking for scum (or admit that you can't find any).

I attacked Azarius, so this line is what you might call okseskitt. Also hypocritical, given your own Day 1.

Good game Serdoa.

[Jkaen]

Well losing 2 key power roles this early sucks pretty badly, interseting they went for Serdoa.

I have to admit I had a moment of happyness when I read the post saying the night was ended with no kill message in it!

GG serdoa
I agree that gazglum and jkaen look a bit worse after that. I agree with novice that he has seemed rather focussed on one target. I would like to hear more thoughts from matt though.
I'm not sure I really understand your play MJW - what is your stance on zak? Is it a weak read that merely noticing that classical_hero had 4 posts was enough to shift you, or was it simply that you couldn't get support?
If the former, why not mattimeo, who also had 4?

Not sure I completely agree here. Thats who Serdoa was talking about voting for back around the middle of day 1, but reviewing his posts:

#15 - Meta
#64 - Vote MJW crazy theory
#73 - Anti Policy Lynch
#81 - Attacks on me and Gazglum, votes me. I think this is the main post people remember
#82 - Additional attack on me
#90 - Attack on novice
#96 - Defensive post
#111 - Defensive post
--------Lynch----------
#148 - Attacks CH voters (Q, Zak, Novice, MJW)
#151 - Attacks Novice

If I was wolfzak or wolfnovice then I would be worried that Serdoa, probably one of the more persuasive players we have in this game, may be going for me today.


One more thing is that while killing your attacker may be a wolf tactic, that can breadcrumb to you, hence killing the attacker of a villager, especially when one or both is a strong player, is very valid.

[Jkaen]

I see Azza addressed his ch switch here:

I moved off c_h because his posts didn't give me anything that resembled a scummy vibe, while Mattimeo's post that I quoted in my vote did.

I will vote Gazglum, since the current scum meta is to kill your accusers, and because he wanted to tunnel on Mattimeo yesterday based on a small suspicion. If Mattimeo is town (more likely than not) this puts scum that much closer to a villager vs. villager showdown on day one. Tunneling is also useful since you don't have to keep looking for scum (or admit that you can't find any).

Bonus scum point for telling us that we would regret a MJW lynch (since MJW's alignment should not be apparent to a townie).

Is 'current scum meta' also dont strongly push your target day 1, just piggyback onto a safe vote?

[Jkaen]

That was an expected kill, GG Serdoa. Merovech, that blue is a little hard to see on the background, at least for me.

Novice, those are good points about Gazglum, but do you really think he was feeling that pressured from what attention Serdoa had given him? I would really like to hear more from Mattimeo today.

Misread this the first time. Why did you expect Serdoa to die?

[Jkaen]

Ok, so not really feeling the Gazglum case here, and dont like how after Novice posted what I think is pretty weak, we then have 3 people follow on saying good post novice and adding nothing much new.

Of the five CH voters (I note Serdoa didnt comment on Azarius), Novice and Zak do have history for wanting to push policy lynches.

Havign a quick scan on which of the others to vote for Qgq's post struck me as having a lot of low level suspicions scattered around, which seems a bit scummy to me, happy placing my vote there for now

Qgq

[zakalwe]

This time I'll stick to my guns. Azarius and Mattimeo are my top suspects, and they're both on MJW. I don't like the wagon. If necessary, I'd vote Azarius over Mattimeo if that would tip it away from MJW.

I'm going to bed. Don't lynch MJW guys. You don't want to drink from that tall glass of regret in the morning.

Maybe tunneling isn't exactly the right word, but you showed a lot of conviction yesterday, Gazglum. And I agree with Novice that faking conviction can be useful as scum, so you don't have to keep moving your vote. You were locking your vote in pretty firmly, to put it another way.

[zakalwe]

For someone unlikely to be on at the deadline, it seemed like a clear self-defense vote disguised as scum hunting.

I didn't get that feeling. That said, I'd like to see Mattimeo's retort to this accusation.

Well, he did already retort like this:

Mattimeo, at least be honest that you're voting MJW to save yourself.

...

No, pretty sure I'm voting him because I can't get away with not voting anyone (my preferred course of action on D1, where there's literally no information to go on what-so-ever), and because continually bringing up retarded points is a better reason to lynch someone than having 1 (classical_hero) or 3 (Azarius) posts in their first game.

But let's hear if he's sticking with that story.

[novice]

Tunneling is also useful since you don't have to keep looking for scum (or admit that you can't find any).

I attacked Azarius, so this line is what you might call okseskitt ([bullshit]). Also hypocritical, given your own Day 1.

How is it hypocritical, did I tunnel? On the contrary, I never claimed to have found any scum, leaving myself open to digs like this:

Is 'current scum meta' also dont strongly push your target day 1, just piggyback onto a safe vote?

JKaen, my answer to that is: Maybe, although I think most people playing scum these days would try to act with more conviction than that. Wishy-washing and pursuing policy lynches is what got me killed as a Ghoul in my last scum game, so I would certainly try to avoid repeating that mistake.

Mattimeo. I'm trying the Ichabod strategy - go with my gut on an outlier Day 1.

Gazglum, I read this statement as a declaration that you would be tunneling on Mattimeo on day 1. I'm not saying villagers don't tunnel (and even do so intentionally), but it is a useful scum strategy.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Well, everything is finally working...

I think we have to kill Mattimeo today if he does'nt begin to post crap but I'll assume that happen's while placing my vote.