WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[Jkaen]

To explain a bit better what I am talking about with regards Qgq, its probably worth me checking my gut feel from his posts.:

MJW
You do need an average of one - if you get 2 one night and 0 another, that is what is wanted. What information is lost in it? And if a majority passes it, then it is through (which is contrary to what I was thinking earlier, but this has been clarified), so the chance of it failing is low.
I think it is unfair to policy lynch before seeing any sign of it, so suggesting it already is stupid. Azza doesn't even have the lowest posts.

On that note, I'd be interested to hear from mattimeo

Target MJW and Mattimeo

@classical_hero, why do you think azza is a shady character? Is that based off something he's said here, or previous impressions at CFC?

I don't think random lynches are a good thing MJW, how do you see that (rather then the normal day 1 discussion) as being helpful to the village?

It's day one, just a random vote with a plausible explanation. Day one is just really guessing unitl w have some action on the night and we get some results.

I really don't like this. It may just be the way you've phrased it, but it sounds like you just made it up to have a plausible explanation. Do you really think he is a shady character? If so, why? If not, has he behaved differently from CFC? Have you noticed anyone behaving weirdly/suspiciously?
I know that day 1 is a pretty random shot, but the only way we can setup for better tells is if you post your views, and give us a way to judge you.

Day one lynches are always a lottery and for the most part I am not a fan of day one lynches. I knew that from what I had read that Azza had no votes on him, so it was more than likely that he wouldn't get lynched. Day one is always the craziest day and generally just for this day no lynch is preferred.

So what are your thoughts on no lynching? Do you find anyone's reaction to it odd, given how you favor it? Why did you vote for someone who wasn't going to get lynched?

I really don't like these posts by classical_hero. The suggestion that azza was first "a shady character" and then that his vote was simply there to plant it with a plausible explanation, in other words, so he didn't have to justify it and that he deliberately voted for someone with no votes.
I don't think he's actually commented on anything from in the thread yet.
Yeah it is a policy lynch, but based off what he's said so far, and previous experience, I don't think classical_hero has any interest in contributing to the game, and only intends to avoid getting modkilled.

Target CH

I also find Jowys interaction with zak to be quite odd, particularly considering how late in the piece he came up with it (at least 24h after the initial post, and he never commented till now, indeed he tried to shut down the conversation several times.

How long do we have till end of day?

Target Jowy

I don't really understand why people are voting mattimeo atm. Azza at least doesn't have any real reasoning behind it, and Gazglums reasoning feels quite weak too. I'd go for MJW or even Gazglum over him - I think Gazglums posts have felt a bit off, and his attack on mattimeo feels contrived, jumping on someone and then making it fit on them. Bit scummy. But MJW feels quite off his normal play style, focussing overly on that single incident with zak and theory crafting around it, rather then his normalstream of consciousness. The advice for random lynchs and his latest vote are also weird.

Target Azza, Gazglum & MJW

Thanks for playing classical_hero, sorry you got hit like that.

I said he was reminding us of old grievances, which is true, even if it was done with a joke post and not a wall-of-text. There's nothing false about it. And since there were only 15 posts at the time, there wasn't a lot else to go on. Saying that my first vote of the game, afterwards explained and moved, was a serious lynch threat on Q's life is a bit of a reach.

Jowy himself had brought those up, by saying that he wasn't going to be doing anything odd this game. Zak (I think) also joke voted him for that. I don't see what is suspicious about bringing up old grievances in a tongue and cheek way - you'll see it in half the games here, like pindicater voting Lewwyn and so on. I joked about it and dismissed it, I don't see anything scummy to that. I do think your jumping on it weird though, admittedly quite an early tell.

Well, we're good at this whole 'welcoming the new people' thing, aren't we...

In a big game, I would agree with you. But we only get three mislynchs here, and classical_hero had behaved suspiciously and shown no inclination to contribute or even read the thread, so I still think it was better then lynching someone like you or MJW.

Target Gazglum & MJW

Oh for fucks sake, that was an awful lynch. For a start, he was highly unlikely to be online at the end of the day since he's in the same timezone as Lewwyn. Trying to pressure him into contributing in the early hours of the morning (his time) is never going to work. Secondly, his logic was terrible, that I agree on, but it wasn't scummy. I can only assume that he was working on the assumption that a majority was needed to lynch, so splitting the vote would've meant no lynch; otherwise his comments make no sense. Someone playing scum is highly unlikely to make such a huge misjudgment of the rules. Finally, of all the people who voted for c_h, Qgqqqqq is the only one who'd played with him before on CFC. So I can give the rest of them some leeway, but Q should've known that there was nothing unusual about c_h's play. But he seemed mixed up between policy lynching based on his CFC play, and voting based on questionable logic. I think it's telling that the closing line of his eventual vote for c_h is based entirely on his past play. It suggests that it was because he knows that the logic that generated the wagon was highly dubious, so he needs to add other aspects to his vote.

Okay…I disagree strongly. What is the alternative? No-one is being particularly scummy. Like I said, this was primarily a policy lynch, and I don’t see anything better. Consider it this way: based off what he said, and the fact that he didn’t actually contribute anything to the discussion tells me that he wasn’t planning to contribute. I have played with him before, and that’s half the reason I voted him – because I knew from past behaviour that he wasn’t going to contribute AT ALL, which is okay on CFC, where WoG are the norm, but not in a game here, and certainly not in a 12-player one. I gave him a chance to contribute (and contrary to what you said, people had been pressuring him all day, to no avail), and he didn’t, so I thought it was much better to get rid of him day 1 then have this be a topic for the rest of the game, and likely take up a better lynch.
I knew he was likely to play like that, so I voted him first to try and get something early – you did the same. As he didn’t change his play to actually respond to the thread, he was lynched.
Speaking of which, why did you jump off him? You said you would only do so if he changed his style which…he didn’t. What made you want to vote mattimeo (apart from the weak “Call a spade a spade” reasoning provided)?
My last line is not based entirely off past play...but from your (greater) experience with classical_hero, would you disagree with this:

Yeah it is a policy lynch, but based off what he's said so far, and previous experience, I don't think classical_hero has any interest in contributing to the game, and only intends to avoid getting modkilled.

That was my impression from my previous game with classical_hero (which was, admittedly, 3 months ago) and what he said in the thread.

I also had no idea as to classical_hero's timezone, and for me it was definitely a policy lynch, the logic was more trying to get him to actually contribute to the game, and a comment on how he wasn't contributing and didn't sem likely to change.
I don't think that was his assumption, as he's definitely played in games of RB's style and his posts don't seem to suggest that.

Q, you voted Matt to get him to talk. He only made 5 posts, one more than CH. Matt said he would prefer to no-lynch, just like CH. The difference between them seems to be that one is new and the other is old, that's all. But later in the day, you were voting for CH, and wondering why people would vote for Matt, even though you voted for Matt yourself earlier and your case on CH is almost identical to the one people had on Matt.

My vote for Matt was a early one to just get him to voice his thoughts. He responded to that (albeit limitedly, I'd still like to hear his thoughts on the day) but he did say things. So I moved off. Classical_hero on the other hand, wasn't contributing at all - they may have posted a bit, but he didn't actually comment on what was happening beyond him at all. Whereas mattimeo was at least commenting Look at his posts:
[spoiler]

Lets see how different these games are compared to CFC. BTW I hate the way the PM messages are done here since they are not obvious enough so you can know if you have one.

It looks like that the votes have to be in red. Azza is quite a shady character.

Lets see how different these games are compared to CFC. BTW I hate the way the PM messages are done here since they are not obvious enough so you can know if you have one.

It looks like that the votes have to be in red. Azza is quite a shady character.

Q asked you about the latter paragraph. To get you talking, I wouldn't mind hearing more about the first paragraph either. How are the CFC games, and how do you usually approach the game?

CFC games are generally more quieter than those here. My style over there is much more subdued since those who talk a lot are deemed to be rather suspicious and and thus to try and stay under the radar it is best to say as little as possible.

What do you ant me to say about the first paragraph, just about the game at CFC? Right now I am just trying to catch up with this game since I keep forgetting that I am in this and not just PB 14.

@classical_hero, why do you think azza is a shady character? Is that based off something he's said here, or previous impressions at CFC?

I don't think random lynches are a good thing MJW, how do you see that (rather then the normal day 1 discussion) as being helpful to the village?

It's day one, just a random vote with a plausible explanation. Day one is just really guessing unitl w have some action on the night and we get some results.

Day one lynches are always a lottery and for the most part I am not a fan of day one lynches. I knew that from what I had read that Azza had no votes on him, so it was more than likely that he wouldn't get lynched. Day one is always the craziest day and generally just for this day no lynch is preferred.

It is also the fact that, based on my experience (and supported by what happened here), mattimeo will contribute, but classical_hero wouldn't.
Is that why people were voting matt then? From what I could see it looked like just based off gut reactions to his inital posts.
But you're right, matt has posted far less then I was thinking, what are your thoughts, mattimeo?

Target Matt

I read your cases, but ultimately they didn't feel like they were very strong, and I didn't comment because I was asleep and they had dropped off the radar.
The stuff that jkaen and gazglum have said there, like how he's often a mislynch is a common reaction, and gazglum in particular seemed to be voting matt more for how he was seeming on what was generally an easy target, rather then dismissing the case out of hand - he seems to be dismissing matts jumping on it as taking advantage of it. I think the way he's been playing is scummy, but I don't see his dismissing that train as so. Jkaen feels village from his posts, I feel like he's contributed a fair bit, but I'll reread.

Target Gaz

MJW, apart from the no lynch discussion (which we can stop anytime now), how do you find zak scummy? What do you mean by saying he doesn't post content?
Because I don't see anything inherently wrong with his proposal, and I didn't think you did at first either, so it seems like you're just using that to justify your obsession with him, giving you a safe vote that people can just ignore because its totally meta-based.

Target MJW

GG serdoa
I agree that gazglum and jkaen look a bit worse after that. I agree with novice that he has seemed rather focussed on one target. I would like to hear more thoughts from matt though.
I'm not sure I really understand your play MJW - what is your stance on zak? Is it a weak read that merely noticing that classical_hero had 4 posts was enough to shift you, or was it simply that you couldn't get support?
If the former, why not mattimeo, who also had 4?

Target Gaz, Jkaen, MJW, Matt



When I say target I mean post about in a negative way.

Having done that exercise its not quite as scattergun and random as I had the impression, as the same names do seem to crop up in different posts quite often.

I think MJW seems to be changing his story as he goes along now, and I am wondering if he is hiding behind his reputation. MJW can I have a summary of your current feeling on the different players, because quite frankly I have no idea what you are thinking currently


(crossposted over the Mattimeo/Azza conversation)

[Qgqqqqq]

Well, I have to defened myself from Qgqqqqq's attack and then it's tiime to sleep:

Spamming the thread is not anti-town if it is acutally doing someing. But I've concluded that Gaz only cares about my attack and he likes it (?). So I don't see the point of contiuneing. This is right before you prodded me, too.

Its scummy when it seems like you're using it to deflect attention rather then actually hunt wolves. Which is how, IMO, you've been playing, as that fixation seemed more of a "this is my thing to bring up rather then actually expecting him to be scummy/hung for it. I mean, it was the first post in day 1, and you were still talking about it 72hrs later, despite it being obvious that everyone was sick to death of it, and only you were raising it. And I didn't think it was doing anything, just bogging the town down in useless discussion.

The mod would say something like "when a wolf dies" or "the color for wolfs" if he knew a wolf was doomed. For example a watcher catching a wolf killing Serdoa would do it. Even if the wolf somehow escapes the first day he's screwed when the watcher's role flips. He would not say "if a wolf EVER dies".

That is a massive reach MJW. And he didn't say "if a wolf EVER dies", as that would be ridiculous tone inappropriate for a mod. Merovech has not had to kill a wolf off yet, and "if a wolf ever dies" is utterly acceptable phrasing which I find extremely unlikely to even subconsciously indicate that he didn't think a wolf would die soon.
Unfortunately Gazglum, I don't think this discussion is illegal. It is stupid though, and an example of what I was talking about

I really cannot take the day seriouslly, and therfore seriously attack someone, untill mattimeo shows up. My vote is just a trick to make sure Az speaks up as Jkaen did'nt vote for him.

Why can't you take the day seriously? Unless you've tracked him to the body or something (??? This would make your weird metaing of the host's wording make sense...) I really don't see why you can't talk about someone else while waiting. Again, it feels like you're deliberately avoiding contributing, even after I asked you for your thoughts...just tell me what you think on novice, azza, jkaen or even me! Say something, because I have a hard time getting your procrastination - its not like you're not spending time in the thread...

Fakeediting:

To me, it feels extremely similar to the way he posted in the masquerade game where I wanted to lynch him for being anti-town (even after he was as good as confirmed town, I still wanted to lynch him, but the whole Muriel thing overrode that).Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Hmm, I did think he was contributing to and actually interacting with the other players there. He's pretty well always anti-town, but I didn't really read him as scummy then.

The main reason I'm avoiding jumping on you at this point is because I always think you're scummy, so I'm not confident in my read here.

Why do you find me scummy? I know you disagree with me, but I'm not seeing anything against the person as opposed to the opinion.


I agree with matts point on you actually, and generally like matts string of posts there.

And I'm not acting under the fallacy that anti-town==scum. Did you even read my post???
A lot of other stuff that I'm crossposting with, but I'm going to sleep so I'll readdress it later.
Preview no.17: including a post directly at me from jkaen! Why can't the thread come alive before 1030 pm?

[Jkaen]

Interesting? What are the other targets? novice, I suppose. zak would be similarly high priority, but I'd also think he'd actually be easier to lynch than Serdoa given this D1. The rest of us? Maybe Gazglum would also be worth a kill in a vacuum. Or MJW if you think removing the annoyance is worth also removing the distraction. The rest of us you need a reason, and you don't generally have one N1.

With what I assume is our only doctor down then going for standards such as Novice especially I would have thought likely, especially since Serdoas got a bit of heat to none for Novice, as a wolf I would have seen if Serdoa's posting dropped off again, or if the still seemed to be interest in lynching him before going for the kill

[Gazglum]

All this discussion is good, but its revolving around only half the players. I had a look at some of the others. For what it’s worth, Azarius came off better to me on a re-read (his mistake about me calling him new felt genuine to me), and I don’t have much problem with Jkaen.

We haven’t heard from Jowy in a while. I liked his posts initially, but I’ve noticed that he’s been reticent about putting his own reads forward lately. He’s slipped down to near the bottom of the postcount, and his last post was just summing up The Story So Far, plus a little pressure on Q. I can see what he was getting at with his listing of Novice’s votes, but nonetheless it feels a bit like a way to sow suspicion without attaching his name to it.

Jowy was also around near the lynch, and could see that his Zak vote was going to be irrelevant. He also commented several times that he thought Classical Hero was bad lynch:

I said it before, but I still don't like the policy lynch. It's punishing bad play. We are supposed to catch wolves, not punish bad play. It's of course different if someone we know to be a good and active player only posts 4 times and has bad gameplay, but it is CH's first game here. Granted this is Day 1, so at least here the odds of catching a wolf off a no-read is not significantly lower than catching a wolf off a wolf-read, since we have so little to go with.

Classical Hero does not seem a good player, or at least follows a different meta. I've got no read on him and I doubt anyone else does either. If he dies today it's a pure policy lynch. Don't see the need for it personally.

Given that, it would seem like he might want to swing the vote towards Mattimeo, or at least comment on the merits of the rival case. But the only comment he had on Mattimeo was,

Mattimeo posted only non-content, or maybe I'm just not interested in the topic of all his posts :P

And later stating that Azza was voting Mattimeo, so maybe Azza was protecting a scumbuddy CH.

Anyway, my point is that Jowy was in a position to try and sway the lynch, but despite stating his opposition to it he didn’t do much to do so. Is posting non-content a scum-tell Jowy? If so, why not vote Mattimeo over Classical Hero. If not, why didn't you pressure Mattimeo to share his thoughts more like you did with Classical Hero?

I also thought his comments that I was pushing Q under ‘false pretences’ and needed to ‘explain myself’ seemed to be an overreaction to my opening posts.

Ok, paranoia is overtaking logic for me now. You're all scum. I’m going to go to bed as well and look at things afresh in the morning.

[Gazglum]

That most recent Jowy post I was talking about is #142 by the way.

Notes:

Zak and MJW spent the whole time fighting each other and distracting the village, but in the end both switched off each other and ended up voting for a now-proven villager together.

Novice's votes:
- Jowy, to bandwagon with Zak
- MJW, for bad play
- Classical Hero, for bad play
In addition, wanted to policy lynch Serdoa before he started posting.
Zero votes for scumminess. Policy lynches are easy to hide behind.

Azarius and Zak also clashed and voted for each other, but in the end both switched off each other and ended up voting for a now-proven villager together.

Q, you voted Matt to get him to talk. He only made 5 posts, one more than CH. Matt said he would prefer to no-lynch, just like CH. The difference between them seems to be that one is new and the other is old, that's all. But later in the day, you were voting for CH, and wondering why people would vote for Matt, even though you voted for Matt yourself earlier and your case on CH is almost identical to the one people had on Matt.

[Jowy]

I think you answered your own question by quoting me I've stated that I found Matt's and CH's cases very similar, with of course the difference being that one is a veteran and the other is a newbie. Should a player always vote for lesser of the two evils rather than someone they suspect themselves? I don't know if there is a right or a wrong answer to that question.

[Gazglum]

I think you answered your own question by quoting me I've stated that I found Matt's and CH's cases very similar, with of course the difference being that one is a veteran and the other is a newbie. Should a player always vote for lesser of the two evils rather than someone they suspect themselves? I don't know if there is a right or a wrong answer to that question.

If you're on at deadline then yes, you should vote for the lesser of two evils. BEcause even if you're right about your target (Zak) being a wolf, one of the two players on the block might be as well. And if it is a wolf vs villager contest, and you're abstaining by voting Zak, then you're making it easier for the wolves to make sure their man doesn't hang. There's nothing to stop you saying, "Zak is my first preference, but for the purpose of this lynch I'll vote X".

Ok, really to bed now.

[novice]

I'll get to the defence in a moment but first:

Oh, I forgot. Everyone got their alighment long before the game even started so that part of Qgqqqq's argument does'nt work.

What are you talking about?

He's referring to this:

And I think your actions on continually spamming the thread on the no-lynch nonsense (which was the very first post, and clearly planned pre-game so shouldn't be relevant for his alignment...) has been very anti town.

---

With what I assume is our only doctor down then going for standards such as Novice especially I would have thought likely, especially since Serdoas got a bit of heat to none for Novice, as a wolf I would have seen if Serdoa's posting dropped off again, or if the still seemed to be interest in lynching him before going for the kill

Just to preemptively defend against the "why is Novice alive?" attack: Serdoa didn't give the impression that he was going to lurk. And I did catch some heat, from Serdoa. Additionally, I didn't scumhunt well on day one, and scum may have taken Serdoa's alleged overreaction to the policy lynch suggestion as a power role tell.

[novice]

I think you answered your own question by quoting me I've stated that I found Matt's and CH's cases very similar, with of course the difference being that one is a veteran and the other is a newbie. Should a player always vote for lesser of the two evils rather than someone they suspect themselves? I don't know if there is a right or a wrong answer to that question.

So are you saying that you did suspect Zak all the way up to the lynch yesterday?

[Azza]

With what I assume is our only doctor down then going for standards such as Novice especially I would have thought likely, especially since Serdoas got a bit of heat to none for Novice, as a wolf I would have seen if Serdoa's posting dropped off again, or if the still seemed to be interest in lynching him before going for the kill

Just to preemptively defend against the "why is Novice alive?" attack: Serdoa didn't give the impression that he was going to lurk. And I did catch some heat, from Serdoa. Additionally, I didn't scumhunt well on day one, and scum may have taken Serdoa's alleged overreaction to the policy lynch suggestion as a power role tell.

That quote was Jkaen's, not mine. Just thought I should clarify that.