WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[Mattimeo]

I would also be keen to hear Mattimeo's thoughts on Jowy at the moment.

I have been terrible at this whole 'sleeping' thing lately, so I should probably make an actual attempt at that now. Will have a look at Jowy this evening. Though Friday night means there's a toss-up whether I'll be back before you turn in

I know you're quite nocturnal Mattimeo, but this is a convenient time to be turning in (its breakfast time man!). By the time you get back from a party in 18 hours, the Jowy case might be a lot clearer. If I was feeling paranoid, I might say that the scum team want to wait until near deadline to decide whether or not to bus their scumbuddy Jowy. Who incidentally, when the roles were reversed, didn't have much to say about you either.

I haven't forgotten you my slippery Melbourne friend. Oh no I have not.

What do you mean? I'm always truthful when I say I'm going to sleep, and the time periods I say I'm unlikely to be around for

Anyway, Jowy:
Starks OK, echoing zak's wild theory with a crackpot one of his own, before recommending that everyone shuts up about it. Then goes on to use zak's theory as the backbone of a case against him
First time in D1 he mentions anything other than zak's opening remarks, and crackpot theories based on that, is mentioning Azza 10 minutes before the deadline:

Azza's game is odd. He wanted to lynch CH and said he'd only switch off him if CH showed he can contribute. Most of us seem to think he hasn't shown that, but Azza is now voting Mattimeo. Understandable if he had grave reasons to switch, but he did not tell us those if he did.

However, I basically agree with everything stated in his D1 wrap-up:

Notes:

Zak and MJW spent the whole time fighting each other and distracting the village, but in the end both switched off each other and ended up voting for a now-proven villager together.

Novice's votes:
- Jowy, to bandwagon with Zak
- MJW, for bad play
- Classical Hero, for bad play
In addition, wanted to policy lynch Serdoa before he started posting.
Zero votes for scumminess. Policy lynches are easy to hide behind.

Azarius and Zak also clashed and voted for each other, but in the end both switched off each other and ended up voting for a now-proven villager together.

Q, you voted Matt to get him to talk. He only made 5 posts, one more than CH. Matt said he would prefer to no-lynch, just like CH. The difference between them seems to be that one is new and the other is old, that's all. But later in the day, you were voting for CH, and wondering why people would vote for Matt, even though you voted for Matt yourself earlier and your case on CH is almost identical to the one people had on Matt.

Today he's been pretty obtuse, but definitely not as badly as novice and zak are making him out to be. I don't see any particular scum tells. In fact, I'm actually disinclined to vote for him specifically because of his confrontational attitude with them - in the off chance they are *both* scum, we really need someone doing that. And dissension is significantly more likely to result in slips or informational night-kills.

Though that 'timeline' is pretty much pure horseshit.

[novice]

Since Jowy refuses to repeat himself, here's the day one Jowy->Gazglum interaction as far as I can tell.

Why so keen on poking the new guy, while reminding us of grievances against Jowy at the same time, Qgqqqq?

It was me who brought it up. Qg made a joke in reference to my post just before his. It's clear that he didn't intend it as anything more than a joke. Gazglum

Jowy, I see what you mean about Q responding to you, and I know it was a joke. I'm a bit wary of it though, because after what we Observed last game, I came into this game thinking that you might make a good early scapegoat for wolves wanting to use any emotions from last game to turn people onto you. And I'm interested that you seem to have already attracted a Scandinavian bandwagon.

I still don't understand why Gaz made it look like Qg was not joking and voted for Qg, but then later admitted that he knew Qg was joking. Why try to get him lynched under false pretenses?

Zakalwe seems to be our best bet today.

If not Zak, then who? Gaz was my other option, but he is away and I would like to hear him explain himself.

I think maybe Gaz answered this further on night one? I guess my comment on the specifics would be that someone can be joking and still use the joke to remind people of past grievances, so Gaz's Q vote wasn't really made under false pretenses.

Either way, I guess Jowy's case on Gaz is plausibly an honest weak day one case. But Jowy, as I have already asked, why didn't you comment on the Gaz case that I started on day 2? Did you wake up on day 2 and suddenly have no opinion on Gaz?

[novice]

First time in D1 he mentions anything other than zak's opening remarks, and crackpot theories based on that, is mentioning Azza 10 minutes before the deadline

Well that's not true at all and really easy to fact check. Why do you claim this?

[Jowy]

Either way, I guess Jowy's case on Gaz is plausibly an honest weak day one case. But Jowy, as I have already asked, why didn't you comment on the Gaz case that I started on day 2? Did you wake up on day 2 and suddenly have no opinion on Gaz?

It's interesting how you think that Gaz having tunnel vision on Matt is a scum tell, but you also think that Jowy not having tunnel vision on Gaz is also a scum tell. Which is it?



Anyway, I've made my points. I see this game going down a very familiar road if I keep getting bombarded by questions and I keep enabling it by answering them. I'm not interested in playing another Muriel game where the village is completely clueless due to spending 90% of their posts on me. Don't expect an answer to every prod anymore, I will only do it when it gives the village new information to help catch wolves. If you wish to policy lynch me for making a case you don't agree with, or for the fact that I'm not going to repeat myself over and over, then you are welcome to do it. I will not hold a grudge. I will be a scum some game in the future, and then I will be glad if the village still likes to punish players rather than catch wolves.

[novice]

Either way, I guess Jowy's case on Gaz is plausibly an honest weak day one case. But Jowy, as I have already asked, why didn't you comment on the Gaz case that I started on day 2? Did you wake up on day 2 and suddenly have no opinion on Gaz?

It's interesting how you think that Gaz having tunnel vision on Matt is a scum tell, but you also think that Jowy not having tunnel vision on Gaz is also a scum tell. Which is it?

No, I'm fine with you not having tunnel vision on Gaz, but I still find it weird that you wouldn't comment on the Gaz case on day 2.

Anyway, I've made my points. I see this game going down a very familiar road if I keep getting bombarded by questions and I keep enabling it by answering them. I'm not interested in playing another Muriel game where the village is completely clueless due to spending 90% of their posts on me. Don't expect an answer to every prod anymore, I will only do it when it gives the village new information to help catch wolves. If you wish to policy lynch me for making a case you don't agree with, or for the fact that I'm not going to repeat myself over and over, then you are welcome to do it. I will not hold a grudge. I will be a scum some game in the future, and then I will be glad if the village still likes to punish players rather than catch wolves.

You haven't made your points. For example, I ask you "Did you wake up on day 2 and suddenly have no opinion on Gaz?" and you answer by accusing me on being inconsistent with regards to tunneling. Why don't you, you know, answer the freaking question instead?

Resigning yourself to fate by saying "I can see where this is going, village is clueless, your policy is wrong" when we are actually questioning you on specifics that you could answer to defend yourself is very scummy behaviour.

[Qgqqqqq]

Jowy, have you considered that you may have been causing this "same old road" by being just as arrogant and non communicative as you were before?
Azza, I don't think I've ever heard you say you always find me scummy before. Is it just a feel off my posts, or am I doing something you could actually point out?

[Gazglum]

If Jowy is going to leave it there, I think I'll leave my vote there too.

Today he's been pretty obtuse, but definitely not as badly as novice and zak are making him out to be. I don't see any particular scum tells.

Really, Matt? Well, maybe I've got too locked in again, but I think that Jowy has had to be pushed hard to answer questions, and even then is still refusing to focus on anyone other than his accusers. Ok, he thinks Novice is one of the scum and that could be genuine, but even when I specifically ask he won't expand his thoughts to who else might be. Jowy has a good sense for werewolf, and he was a villager going down I would value knowing his thoughts on the state of play so we could consider them going forward. His refusal to do anything but counter-accuse and repeat a few case-points over and over seems definitely scummy to me, or at least petulantly anti-town.

In fact, I'm actually disinclined to vote for him specifically because of his confrontational attitude with them - in the off chance they are *both* scum, we really need someone doing that. And dissension is significantly more likely to result in slips or informational night-kills.

I, too, fear the superwolves my friend. I know that Zak and Novice tend to think alike (for those that don't know, they are brothers), but they seem to have been particularly in lock-step this game: bandwagoning Jowy, musing Serdoa, jumping on me, jumping on Jowy. I find it hard to believe that both of them being wolves would play like that. But I can believe that one of them being scummy would stick close to the other, hoping to keep them blind by buddying up to them.

If that is the case, I think the scumtwin is most likely Zak. I do partially agree with what Jowy and MJW have been saying - Zak introducing a hypothetical did lead to wasted time in Day 1, even if it wasn't him always bringing it up again. Zak was also the one to join Novice on flirting with a Serdoa lynch, then on voting me, and now pushing Jowy. Novice has been taking the lead more of the two, Zak is always second to the party.

It's partly to learn more about Zak and Novice that I think a Jowy lynch is the best bet today. At this point, I think a Jowy lynch gives us the most information. Zak, Novice and me have been on him hard all day. If he flips scum, I will feel a lot better about the Vikings, and hopefully others will feel better about me. If he is innocent then I'm going to have to take a long hard look at the other two, and get ready to play defence.

You also play into this, Matt, because I feel that Jowy has notably avoided commenting on you, while you delayed a comment on him. If he is guilty, I would feel more confident about pressuring you tomorrow. If he is innocent, I will be less sure about your scumminess, if only because my own intuition will have been shown to be out.

Lynching you, or anybody else, doesn't tell me nearly as much for Day 3. So I'm going to stick with my Jowy vote.

[Gazglum]

Zak, at the start of the day you said that you were going to vote Azza, but then went with me instead. Why Azza, and do you still suspect him?

[Jowy]

Correction Gazglum: I was the one who made the first strike against both Zakalwe and Novice. They are the ones who attacked their accuser.

[Jowy]

Okay novice one more.

Anyway, I've made my points. I see this game going down a very familiar road if I keep getting bombarded by questions and I keep enabling it by answering them. I'm not interested in playing another Muriel game where the village is completely clueless due to spending 90% of their posts on me. Don't expect an answer to every prod anymore, I will only do it when it gives the village new information to help catch wolves. If you wish to policy lynch me for making a case you don't agree with, or for the fact that I'm not going to repeat myself over and over, then you are welcome to do it. I will not hold a grudge. I will be a scum some game in the future, and then I will be glad if the village still likes to punish players rather than catch wolves.

You haven't made your points. For example, I ask you "Did you wake up on day 2 and suddenly have no opinion on Gaz?" and you answer by accusing me on being inconsistent with regards to tunneling. Why don't you, you know, answer the freaking question instead?

The answer is "no". I have an opinion on everyone. I thought that was a rhetorical question.