WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[novice]

Okay novice one more.

The answer is "no". I have an opinion on everyone. I thought that was a rhetorical question.

And what is your opinion on Gazglum? This is like pulling teeth...

[zakalwe]

Zak, at the start of the day you said that you were going to vote Azza, but then went with me instead. Why Azza, and do you still suspect him?

I was going to vote for him for his awkward Mattimeo vote yesterday. (BTW Mattimeo, I also asked you a question about that. Search for "bear with me".)

He hasn't done anything scummy today beyond being quiet, which is in fact a bit out of character for him as town. He tends to contribute much more when he's town than when he's scum.

Just as a general note, I'm not dead set on lynching Jowy, but those who want another lynch had better speak up now and not just sit on their hands. I have to break for a few hours, but I'm willing to consider other cases too, when I get back.

[Jowy]

Okay novice one more.

The answer is "no". I have an opinion on everyone. I thought that was a rhetorical question.

And what is your opinion on Gazglum? This is like pulling teeth...

I've already said that I don't have anything new to add about him. See how this is getting us nowhere?
Yeah I definitely should stop this enabling. If nothing else, at least I'll finally have some time to go over the thread and write down my final thoughts before you kill me.

[Azza]

Jowy, have you considered that you may have been causing this "same old road" by being just as arrogant and non communicative as you were before?
Azza, I don't think I've ever heard you say you always find me scummy before. Is it just a feel off my posts, or am I doing something you could actually point out?

I'm pretty sure I've said it before in other games. It's mostly a feel from your posts, I can't pin point exactly what it is.

[Qgqqqqq]

...

I'm pretty sure I've said it before in other games. It's mostly a feel from your posts, I can't pin point exactly what it is.

Wow okay, I've never noticed that before. Out of curiosity, did you feel the same about Agnes?
Also, if you always feel the same about me, why do you think I'm scummy for giving the same read this time? Or has no one else been scummy enough this game?

I'd like to make a sales pitch for MJW. I don't understand why people are just ignoring him. Now, granted we haven't seen anything in a while, and Jowy has been doing a good job of distracting the game (I am note hypothesizing a link here FTR), but I don't get why people aren't finding him scummy. Given timelines are the thing at the moment:
1. He spends all of day 1 jumping between seeming support for the no lynch idea (at least it seemed that way in its first posts) and talking about how zak is scum. This is occasionally punctuated by meta nonsense and/or commenting on the thread, but is mostly free flow.
2. Just before the lynch, having jumped through incredible logic hoops about how zak must be scum for posting this theory, he suddenly does an about turn and votes classical_hero for lurking. If MJW flipped wolf, I'd definitely take a look at matt for that, as his sudden change in reasoning was pretty weird, especially as he'd attacked matt earlier but not classical_hero.
3. Day 2 he refuses to post any cases until matt comes back.
*Matt comes back*
4. He refuses to attack anyone but zak.

Oh and I left out the stupid meta thing about the mod, he talked about that too (and boy, was that helpful ).
Are people simply ignoring this because MJW is normally weird? In my experience, MJW would still be contributing. It would be weird contributions, and often with hard to follow logic, but there would still be contribution to the thread, whereas here he seems to be just using it.


That said, I am finding myself more inclined to vote Jowy.
For example:

Okay novice one more.

The answer is "no". I have an opinion on everyone. I thought that was a rhetorical question.

And what is your opinion on Gazglum? This is like pulling teeth...

I've already said that I don't have anything new to add about him. See how this is getting us nowhere?

I wonder why its getting us nowhere...
What is your opinion on him currently? Given you suspected him earlier, why didn't you try to confront him when he was online (including now, he's normally online about now)?

Yeah I definitely should stop this enabling. If nothing else, at least I'll finally have some time to go over the thread and write down my final thoughts before you kill me.

Why do you play these games practically intending to get lynched? Yes, your best response to people asking you questions is to let them lynch you so you can laugh at us through your (likely arrogant) final thoughts.

It's interesting how you think that Gaz having tunnel vision on Matt is a scum tell, but you also think that Jowy not having tunnel vision on Gaz is also a scum tell. Which is it?

There is a big range of nuance between avoiding commenting on something, and commenting so much on something that it dominates the play. I would put you and MJW as examples of this, MJW won't voice any suspicions beyond zak, yet won't shut up about him. You avoid answering questions with a fury. He hasn't asked you why you didn't have tunnel vision, he's asked you why you ignored Gazglum despite earlier suspicions. You didn't have to spam "lynch uberfish zak Gazglum" (as I believe the saying goes ) but I agree that its weird that your stance changed. So what he is asking is did it, if so why, if not, why didn't you discuss it with him?
Oh and Jowy, this is why you are attacking your accusers, and not them. Regardless of who posted first on the other, your reaction to their questions is to comment on it - which is fine, if risking being overbearing - but then not replying to it. In other words, when they attack you, you attack them in turn, but fail to defend against them or respond to them.
Zak, this hasn't been replied to yet:

Zak, at the start of the day you said that you were going to vote Azza, but then went with me instead. Why Azza, and do you still suspect him?

[Azza]

...

I'm pretty sure I've said it before in other games. It's mostly a feel from your posts, I can't pin point exactly what it is.

Wow okay, I've never noticed that before. Out of curiosity, did you feel the same about Agnes?
Also, if you always feel the same about me, why do you think I'm scummy for giving the same read this time? Or has no one else been scummy enough this game?

I don't recall thinking that Agnes was scum, but I was deliberately trying to ignore any thoughts about who was who in that game and was preoccupied with Muriel most of that game.

I have to admit I'm having trouble picking up scum tells this game because I've been glazing over most posts made by or responding to Jowy and MJW. It's just too much of a headache. I do find myself agreeing with Gazlgum's points, so in absence of a better read I'm favouring going with his logic.

Zak, this hasn't been replied to yet:

Zak, at the start of the day you said that you were going to vote Azza, but then went with me instead. Why Azza, and do you still suspect him?

I believe he did in post #282.

[Gazglum]

I'm about to do a big post, but onw thign Q,

2. Just before the lynch, having jumped through incredible logic hoops about how zak must be scum for posting this theory, he suddenly does an about turn and votes classical_hero for lurking. If MJW flipped wolf, I'd definitely take a look at matt for that, as his sudden change in reasoning was pretty weird, especially as he'd attacked matt earlier but not classical_hero.

That's not really true. MJW said in POst 53:

I just feel that C.Hero is very likely to be a lurker. A type of lurker is someone who just comes to RB for the civ games and plays werewolf on the side. They tend to make a few tangential posts. I think I'm just profilling him. Azza would be much better today because he has a history of lurkering but if the end of the day is C.Hero vs. someone else I have a good chance of picking C.Hero.

So I wouldnt' say it was out of the blue to vote him.

[Qgqqqqq]

Oops

[Mattimeo]

Really, Matt? Well, maybe I've got too locked in again, but I think that Jowy has had to be pushed hard to answer questions, and even then is still refusing to focus on anyone other than his accusers.

When you're being pushed that hard to answer questions you believe you already have, it can be rather difficult to widen your scum-dar to encompass anyone beyond your initial, strongly held suspicions, who just happen to be the ones attacking you. Being merely "petulantly anti-town" is about the best response I'd be considering in such a situation.

The more I look, the more I see "playing similar to how I would" tells, which I'm not generally likely to attribute to scum motivations...

If that is the case, I think the scumtwin is most likely Zak. I do partially agree with what Jowy and MJW have been saying - Zak introducing a hypothetical did lead to wasted time in Day 1, even if it wasn't him always bringing it up again. Zak was also the one to join Novice on flirting with a Serdoa lynch, then on voting me, and now pushing Jowy. Novice has been taking the lead more of the two, Zak is always second to the party.

I'd be more inclined to think it's novice, if it's only one of them. Only really gut in that, though, since I have a hard time actually analysing interaction tells on a higher level than that, and we don't yet have anything actually solid to go on.

You also play into this, Matt, because I feel that Jowy has notably avoided commenting on you, while you delayed a comment on him.

Well, the other option was leaving your question completely unresponded to 'til I got back and formulated the actual response to the question like I did.

Would I be more or less suspicious, in your mind, had #250 simply not existed?

First time in D1 he mentions anything other than zak's opening remarks, and crackpot theories based on that, is mentioning Azza 10 minutes before the deadline

Well that's not true at all and really easy to fact check. Why do you claim this?

Too lazy to properly fact check when I'm bullshitting.

Mattimeo, bear with me: did you vote for self-preservation yesterday or was it based on policy? It's not entirely clear.

Placing a vote was self-preservation, in the sense that it's impermissable not to.
Specifically putting it on MJW was due to that being the least harmful place to put it.

[Gazglum]

Ok, I said i'd think about everyone again, and I had the time this evening. Going into rereading, I was particularly thinking about Jkaen

SCUMMY

Jowy - I've been attacking him all day, nothing new to add from re-reading.

Matt - I really do think Matt is probably scum as well. Looking at his posts again, he has been posting as much as normal, but its like he always picks the most irrelevant tidbits of conversation to respond to. Look at his posts #205 or #249 for example, he's not scum-hunting, he's just bantering about irrelevancies.

I also noticed that he said today that he was basically parking his vote on MJW as a least-bad option, but when he made it it felt more like he was making MJW out to be scum, but that might just be my interpretation.

THE FILTHY NEUTRALS

MJW - I didn't read MJW as out of character Day 1, but I admit that his ferocious posting style makes me glaze over too, which isn't really a great thing for town. I also agree with people who say that he is taking the Zak attacks too far, without really adding more substance to them, so he's creeping up towards my scum bracket now.

Zak - Zak is a deadly foe as a wolf, so I'm always a little concerned. Serdoa, Jowy and MJW have all thought him varying degrees of scummy. I commented on him a ltitle above - my main issue is that he is following Novice a lot, rather than starting his own attacks. If he's still alive Day 4, I might start throwing a few sceptical third world child looks his way. But no real scum tells at the moment.

Jkaen - I had a bad feeling about Jkaen going into rereading. He's seemed helpful, but I think Jkaen could pull off that kind of helpful scum persona. But rereading, I think there is a lot of good there. #79 seems the most genuine attempt of any of us to draw Classical Hero out and get him to post. Post #124 is a good counterargument to the train on CH. I like #173, helpful. I guess the reason that I don't put him in my town list is that although I've been happy with his play, he's not convinced me emotionally. Also he's being a bit passive with scumhunting. If there was a deep cover wolf, I could buy it being Jkaen, but as long he's going to continue being helpful he won't get my vote.

Azza - I have thought (mistakenly) that Azza was scum in almost every game, but this game I'm gelling with him a lot. I agreed with most of what he said Day 1, and would have put him as town then - I was a bit surprised that others got scum vibes. But I feel his Day 2 has been a bit of a letdown - skating through a bit. But that's hardly unusual for him I guess. Also, I know Azza doesn't give a damn about what people think about him, so I don't think him delaying his vote while he makes up his mind is really a scum tell on him. I thought his angry outbust after the lynch seemed legit also. But would like to see more tomorrow though.

Azarius - Neutral leaning to town. Don't have much to say about him - he's been quietish, but reasonable seeming. No scum tells after that post I talked abotu Day 1, and that was pretty weak anyway. Probably deserves another look sometime.

TOWNY

Novice - I've calmed down from my snapping at him at the start of the day. I think Novice has been completely in character - a passive Day 1, followed by a calm but relentless attack Day 2. He's also agreeing with my on a target. If Jowy is innocent though, Novice would lose his position in my town group.

Q - I feel like Q has been commenting on almost everyone and everything that happens, which is good. I liked his post #113 as a nice little point on Jowy. I'm not sure if I agree with a lot of what he's saying, but it feels genuine to me, and he seems like much more of a presence than I remember him being in previous scum games.