WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[Azarius]

I know I'm the worst person to be saying this, but why MJW? What pushed him over azza/matt for you?

Is this for me? I'm just following Novice. And MJW fits well with my other suspects.

MJW really has been spamming up the thread a lot, and not just with the thought crime.

Any particular reason why you're just following Novice? There are certainly worse choices to follow this game, but you seem to have spent quite a bit of time on his coattails. Up until MJW's flip I was fairly suspicious of you, and
I don't necessarily clear everyone who was voting him. That being said, I have a hard time seeing the whole saga with MJW about your first post dragging on like it did if you were both scum.

[Azarius]

Haven't re-read yet with the new implications in mind, but I was wondering about Azarius' silence and checked out some of his more recent posts. I figured he might just be busy and that's why he posts so little and doesn't have much content, but then I found this gem:

For someone short of time, he sure accomplished almost nothing with what time he does have. On days when I was short of time for this last game, I tried to use what time I did have to address important questions and get across my views on things as best I could. All he seems to be doing here is checking in like it's an obligation to appear active.

It's funny how these things work out. I don't think he has followed his own advice.

And btw it's worded in a way that says he was busy last game but isn't this game. So that kinda answers the question of whether he's busy or just choosing to not post.

I stand by that statement. By "on days I was short of time last game" I wasn't saying I was busy all of last game, I was simply referring to the times during the game when I was, not saying the whole of last game I was busy. Circumstances this game have given me more time than last in general, but also have caused a largish chunk of time I wasn't able to be involved. The crux of my argument there wasn't just that Mattimeo was short on time and it was scummy, it's that the time he was putting into the game he wasn't doing anything with. While I can't argue that I am definitely posting less than I would like, I do disagree that what I have posted has been comparable to most of what Mattimeo has.

[zakalwe]

Azza, if you strongly disagree that you've been more quiet than usual, you could have said so the first time I brought it up. I think you tend to be more active and stick your head out more when you're town. But I'll reevaluate when I reread.

Gazglum, you can rest assured that I would be gunning hard for three consecutive mislynches if I were scum with MJW on my team.

Jowy, why do you think MJW didn't have much longevity? And regardless of why you think so, Gazglum looks very scummy for parroting that idea.

I also need to reread, but one thing I do remember from day one is that Azarius attacked MJW. So that is possibly a point in his favor. On the other hand, MJW didn't like my meta-based attack on Azarius, which is perhaps also noteworthy, since nobody would raise an eyebrow if he supported me in that.

[Azza]

So, my vote is pretty much process of elimination. Gazglum I strongly lean town, Jkaen slight town lean, Azarius no current suspicion. Zak and novice I can't get a read on so far because the arguments exchanged with MJW and Jowy are a chore to try to read. At this stage, I can't distinguish between which of those two is more likely to be disruptive scum and disruptive villager. Don't like Qgqqqqq, but can't justify voting for him, particularly when there's no clear support. So that leaves Mattimeo, who hasn't sat right with the things he's been saying.

Not great logic, but it seems the best way to go today.

Azza, why does Gazglum get a strong town read from you here?

Because I know I'm town, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of his logic.

[Azarius]

I agree with Jowy's take on who's scum, I think Q's analysis is overthinking things.

Town leans:
zakalwe, Jowy, novice - decisive votes on MJW
jkaen - voted MJW, and I already had a town lean from his posts
Qgqqqqq - MJW's strongest pursuer
Mattimeo - MJW's target and alternative lynch option

I disagree with giving Jkaen and Mattimeo town leans based on the votes.

Jkaen was on him very early, and his vote comes (in post 211, I tried to spoiler it in but nested spoilers seem to act strangely) with a request for him to give his thoughts on all the players. He does also state that he thinks MJW may be hiding behind his reputation, but that and prodding someone for their thoughts does not imply a strong stance. Moreover, at the time he made the vote, it was so early in the day Novice and Zakalwe were still on Gazglum. Q was on MJW, but he was the only one. By the time of his last post of the day, pressure had moved on to Jowy, and MJW still had only Q and himself on him, and discussion wasn't really on MJW either.

As far as Mattimeo, I don't think we can clear him based on him being MJW's target. As he said himself when he made the vote, he was the only target with more than one vote. I can't speak for everyone but I would certainly find it suspicious if, knowing that MJW was online, he didn't make a self defense vote onto the only other person with multiple votes on them.

[novice]

As far as Mattimeo, I don't think we can clear him based on him being MJW's target. As he said himself when he made the vote, he was the only target with more than one vote. I can't speak for everyone but I would certainly find it suspicious if, knowing that MJW was online, he didn't make a self defense vote onto the only other person with multiple votes on them.

When I say that Mattimeo was MJW's target I'm referring to MJW pushing for Mattimeo's lynch throughout the game. At the start of day two he said he couldn't take the game seriously until Mattimeo started posting crap. MJW's other target was Zak, by the way.

If Gazglum is scum, it would be needlessly risky for scum Jkaen to put his vote on MJW when Gazglum was under pressure. If Gazglum defends successfully you don't want the votes to move to your other scum buddy. So at the very least I don't see Jkaen as scum with Gaz.

[Azarius]

Ok, I misunderstood you there. I didn't think he had really pushed Mattimeo all that hard, but I had forgotten about that posting crap comment. That and the followup after it would be sort of an odd interaction if they are both scum. Definetely hadn't forgotten about his game long love of Zak.

Agreed that Jkaen and Gazglum are unlikely to be scum buddies because of that, I had missed that implication in looking it over. I really wish there was a better way to sift posts than the long list of headers it gives you.

[zakalwe]

Azarius, I always try to work with Novice if I feel like I can trust him. And I almost always feel like I can trust him. So yeah, I've been voting with him a lot, and drawing some criticism for it. The case against Mattimeo wasn't so compelling, though, so I suggested Azza as an alternative. But when he voted for MJW, I got that familiar feeling of being on to something, and decided to join him again.

[Azarius]

That sounds reasonable. Just to clarify, I wasn't faulting you for working with Novice per say, as it's fairly clear he is town, so you can trust his reads to be genuine. My worry was that you seemed to not be taking many stances of your own, but on rereading through your posts you have actually voiced plenty of original reads even if you have ended up voting with him quite a bit.

[zakalwe]

Q, I feel your attack on MJW is because he's being anti-town rather than scummy. If this is an incorrect assumption, could you please explain how his play indicates he's scum rather than just crazy old MJW?

Q, I feel your attack on MJW is because he's being anti-town rather than scummy. If this is an incorrect assumption, could you please explain how his play indicates he's scum rather than just crazy old MJW?

No, that's not what I was getting at. In general, MJW says weird meta stuff, and makes odd votes, but generally he does contribute. He does give his own thoughts on a bunch of issues, and IMO he does push his suspicions and thoughts on a bunch of people.
But I'm not seeing that at all this game. What I see as suspicious is that he seems to be using his weird meta as a smoke screen for posting a lot, but nor actually contributing. The whole fixation with zaks opening post, is something I feel he is using to allow himself to sit back and not contribute, not actually scumhunt. The same thing with the "I'll not help until matt turns up" posts, I feel he is deliberately avoiding contributing as a player.
I suppose the difference lies in my perceived intention of the action - the whole thing looks deliberate, unlike his normal spam, and I feel his contributing less then normal is a scum factor, not just MJW playing badly.

To me, it feels extremely similar to the way he posted in the masquerade game where I wanted to lynch him for being anti-town (even after he was as good as confirmed town, I still wanted to lynch him, but the whole Muriel thing overrode that).

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The main reason I'm avoiding jumping on you at this point is because I always think you're scummy, so I'm not confident in my read here.

This isn't the scum Azza that I know, going so far to defend a scumbuddy on day 2.