WW27 Game Thread: Once there were 12

[Qgqqqqq]

Ok just saw these:

Jowy, I understand the point you are making, but I think you see a tell due to standard defensive bias. Not surprised you see something, but don't agree with it. To be honest thinking its a tell gives me a slight town lean for that post

To be honest thinking its a tell gives me a slight town lean for that post

I agree, with the standard disclaimer that it could be cleverly faked.

Are they what you were thinking of?

[Gazglum]

My post #429 has the posts that struck me as better than he had been doing - Jowy actually giving reads on people. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been told to give something along those lines from the scum thread though.

And town leans were those posts, plus your #320:

Jowy won't stop feeling enormously scummy to me, but I'm a bit worried that he'll just end up being a villager playing badly...
Can we get a tally?

ANd Zak:

I don't really think Jowy looks like squirming scum either, he's just too confident and stubborn for that. I'd say that if he's scum, he's being pretty cool under pressure. Perhaps playing up his internal "misguided villager", though (I've been there).

So, admittedly, a lot of the group, including you and Novice, my biggest town leans. So I was doubting.

[Qgqqqqq]

Since Jowy refuses to repeat himself, here's the day one Jowy->Gazglum interaction as far as I can tell.

Why so keen on poking the new guy, while reminding us of grievances against Jowy at the same time, Qgqqqq?

It was me who brought it up. Qg made a joke in reference to my post just before his. It's clear that he didn't intend it as anything more than a joke. Gazglum

Jowy, I see what you mean about Q responding to you, and I know it was a joke. I'm a bit wary of it though, because after what we Observed last game, I came into this game thinking that you might make a good early scapegoat for wolves wanting to use any emotions from last game to turn people onto you. And I'm interested that you seem to have already attracted a Scandinavian bandwagon.

I still don't understand why Gaz made it look like Qg was not joking and voted for Qg, but then later admitted that he knew Qg was joking. Why try to get him lynched under false pretenses?

Zakalwe seems to be our best bet today.

If not Zak, then who? Gaz was my other option, but he is away and I would like to hear him explain himself.

I think maybe Gaz answered this further on night one? I guess my comment on the specifics would be that someone can be joking and still use the joke to remind people of past grievances, so Gaz's Q vote wasn't really made under false pretenses.

Either way, I guess Jowy's case on Gaz is plausibly an honest weak day one case. But Jowy, as I have already asked, why didn't you comment on the Gaz case that I started on day 2? Did you wake up on day 2 and suddenly have no opinion on Gaz?

...

I'm pretty sure I've said it before in other games. It's mostly a feel from your posts, I can't pin point exactly what it is.

Wow okay, I've never noticed that before. Out of curiosity, did you feel the same about Agnes?
Also, if you always feel the same about me, why do you think I'm scummy for giving the same read this time? Or has no one else been scummy enough this game?

I'd like to make a sales pitch for MJW. I don't understand why people are just ignoring him. Now, granted we haven't seen anything in a while, and Jowy has been doing a good job of distracting the game (I am note hypothesizing a link here FTR), but I don't get why people aren't finding him scummy. Given timelines are the thing at the moment:
1. He spends all of day 1 jumping between seeming support for the no lynch idea (at least it seemed that way in its first posts) and talking about how zak is scum. This is occasionally punctuated by meta nonsense and/or commenting on the thread, but is mostly free flow.
2. Just before the lynch, having jumped through incredible logic hoops about how zak must be scum for posting this theory, he suddenly does an about turn and votes classical_hero for lurking. If MJW flipped wolf, I'd definitely take a look at matt for that, as his sudden change in reasoning was pretty weird, especially as he'd attacked matt earlier but not classical_hero.
3. Day 2 he refuses to post any cases until matt comes back.
*Matt comes back*
4. He refuses to attack anyone but zak.

Oh and I left out the stupid meta thing about the mod, he talked about that too (and boy, was that helpful ).
Are people simply ignoring this because MJW is normally weird? In my experience, MJW would still be contributing. It would be weird contributions, and often with hard to follow logic, but there would still be contribution to the thread, whereas here he seems to be just using it.


That said, I am finding myself more inclined to vote Jowy.
For example:

Okay novice one more.

The answer is "no". I have an opinion on everyone. I thought that was a rhetorical question.

And what is your opinion on Gazglum? This is like pulling teeth...

I've already said that I don't have anything new to add about him. See how this is getting us nowhere?

I wonder why its getting us nowhere...
What is your opinion on him currently? Given you suspected him earlier, why didn't you try to confront him when he was online (including now, he's normally online about now)?

Yeah I definitely should stop this enabling. If nothing else, at least I'll finally have some time to go over the thread and write down my final thoughts before you kill me.

Why do you play these games practically intending to get lynched? Yes, your best response to people asking you questions is to let them lynch you so you can laugh at us through your (likely arrogant) final thoughts.

It's interesting how you think that Gaz having tunnel vision on Matt is a scum tell, but you also think that Jowy not having tunnel vision on Gaz is also a scum tell. Which is it?

There is a big range of nuance between avoiding commenting on something, and commenting so much on something that it dominates the play. I would put you and MJW as examples of this, MJW won't voice any suspicions beyond zak, yet won't shut up about him. You avoid answering questions with a fury. He hasn't asked you why you didn't have tunnel vision, he's asked you why you ignored Gazglum despite earlier suspicions. You didn't have to spam "lynch uberfish zak Gazglum" (as I believe the saying goes ) but I agree that its weird that your stance changed. So what he is asking is did it, if so why, if not, why didn't you discuss it with him?
Oh and Jowy, this is why you are attacking your accusers, and not them. Regardless of who posted first on the other, your reaction to their questions is to comment on it - which is fine, if risking being overbearing - but then not replying to it. In other words, when they attack you, you attack them in turn, but fail to defend against them or respond to them.
Zak, this hasn't been replied to yet:

Zak, at the start of the day you said that you were going to vote Azza, but then went with me instead. Why Azza, and do you still suspect him?

You also said that Jowy had started responding to questions made overnight where he hadn't before. This may just be perception, but he definitely didn't. The questions being asked of Jowy basically revolved around what his stance on Gazglum was then/why he hadn't been discussing Gazglum at the start of Day 2 when they were both online. These are the ones that novice/zak and I were trying to get answers too (you may have been talking about others, but I can't see them and this was the question being asked so I find it unlikely) but he didn't answer them then (and still hasn't ).
So what were you talking about then, Gazglum?

[zakalwe]

Q, what's your current assessment of what went down yesterday? Was MJW bussed, did they try to save him, or something in between?

Not really sure tbh. I think that it's likely at least one wolf got on the wagon (possibly Jkaen trapped from earlier or someone like you/Jowy later on) but I think there's probably someone off it as well - either Matt or Gazglum. I suppose I don't think there was a concerted effort either way.

Ok. For the record, the reason I asked was that this:

I mean, look through his posts at how horrible they are in terms of actually talking about people (the only one he did do took forever to get him to post it, and even then it was wishy-washy about everyone), and yet people still saw him as village because of his posting style.

Seems to imply that the people who weren't voting for MJW were innocent. Which would be incompatible with the view that the wolves tried to save him.

I think Gazglum's targeting today makes sense if he is innocent, as it matches my own thinking about who could be scum if he is innocent. Initially, he attacked Azarius, for voting with him on Mattimeo, and hypothesized that Jkaen was the other scum, trapped on the MJW wagon. Then, he attacked Jowy and Mattimeo. Both of these scum pairs seem like logical alternatives to me. So irrespective of how good his attacks were, the choice of targets at least makes sense. It's certainly not impossible to replicate that thought process (about who to target) as scum, though.

[Gazglum]

You also said that Jowy had started responding to questions made overnight where he hadn't before. This may just be perception, but he definitely didn't. The questions being asked of Jowy basically revolved around what his stance on Gazglum was then/why he hadn't been discussing Gazglum at the start of Day 2 when they were both online. These are the ones that novice/zak and I were trying to get answers too (you may have been talking about others, but I can't see them and this was the question being asked so I find it unlikely) but he didn't answer them then (and still hasn't ).
So what were you talking about then, Gazglum?

This is starting to get a little bit tiresome Q. On the subject of answering questions, I'd say I've done more than most people in this game.

I'm back, and I'm unimpressed by what I've seen from Jowy overnight. It's harder to get a baseline on him, because he mixes up his styles game to game. But two aspects of his village play as nogrammarJowy and Muriel were consistent: he was at or near the top in post-count, and he commented on everybody. In his first game I remember him making some complete ordered suspect lists, and he made incisive comments on several people including pegging me as a wolf from the start.

This game he's been posting much less, and I feel like he's restricting his meaningful comments to one or two people at a time. I would like to see him do a little list like MJW. What do you think of Q, Jkaen or Matt, for example, Jowy?
I would also be keen to hear Mattimeo's thoughts on Jowy at the moment.

That was a big problem for me, Jowy spent ages not commenting on anybody except for Novice. At the end of the day he at least gave leans on Azza, Mattimeo, MJW and Jkaen, plus he attacked you. He definitely broadened his viewpoint.

[Jowy]

Okay, first off I believe Azarius' claim. If the wolves had no-lynched in the night, it would give the town an extra miss-lynch and thus would never be worth it for the scum. So a kill was blocked, and if it was someone else than Azarius, that person will call BS on Azarius and one of them will roll wolf when we lynch them. I must note at this point that I really did not like Azarius before Day 2 lynch. I saw him lurking, but he chose not to post, even though his own philosophy is to share his thoughts on important things even when low on time, and I believe a close lynch race qualifies as an important event. He would be high on my list if not for the reveal which appears to be legit. Who do we have left then? Gazglum and Azza are the only realistic choices for me at this moment. It almost seems too easy, but if I had voted for Mattimeo last night and he rolled villager (as I now strongly believe he is), I think the village would have been really far from victory.

Yes, I think it's possible that a sacrifice was made. IIRC I was the one who first brought up the possibility that scum might have made a sacrifice. But I find it much more likely that there was no sacrifice, especially since the scum would have been in really good position if Matt died and I was revenge-lynched the next day for picking wrong. In fact if my calculations are right, that's all they would have needed to win. 6-3 after Matt dies, 5-3 after night kill, 4-3 after I die, 3-3 after night kill. Scum win. Of course they couldn't have known about Azarius if he's legit. A sacrifice is a possibility and we should keep it in our minds, but I don't think it was likely. It seems some of you think it is more likely than I think it is, which is okay, we all have our opinions. I don't get why you vote to lynch me for disagreeing with you, though.

I really don't understand underplaying the importance of my vote. I've said this once before but I'll repeat it: If I was scum, why would I cast my vote 10 minutes before deadline, instead of waiting and seeing if I could save my scum buddy? I know I'm not the best at this game, but even a noob like me wouldn't make a mistake like that. I admit though, I hadn't really thought about the implications of my vote. I was ready to switch if I changed my mind. It wasn't until later when Q pointed it out when I realized how scummy it would have looked if I switched and a villager died. But if I was a scum, I would always be thinking of how I look.


Re-read thoughts:

Gazglum:

- Tried to save a scum on Day 1 and Day 2 without much reason for it.

I'm going to bed. Don't lynch MJW guys. You don't want to drink from that tall glass of regret in the morning.

- Not just that, but also MJW had Gaz marked down as town without much reason for it.

10. Gaz. Seems to be posting a lot and feels sincere.

- Theatrics. Perhaps not the most convincing tell, but I personally like it. I think his theatrics are due to playing a character, not playing a game as himself. It is also reminiscent of his wolf thread in WW25.

There is a sorrowful atmosphere at the Glum's breakfast table this morning. Farewell classical hero. Like Hector and Achilles, you fall before your time.

So, the musikalsk-vognfeste is clanking its way towards me now, eh? One day you will both be wolves, and when that happens the village will burn.

I would also be keen to hear Mattimeo's thoughts on Jowy at the moment.

I have been terrible at this whole 'sleeping' thing lately, so I should probably make an actual attempt at that now. Will have a look at Jowy this evening. Though Friday night means there's a toss-up whether I'll be back before you turn in

I know you're quite nocturnal Mattimeo, but this is a convenient time to be turning in (its breakfast time man!). By the time you get back from a party in 18 hours, the Jowy case might be a lot clearer. If I was feeling paranoid, I might say that the scum team want to wait until near deadline to decide whether or not to bus their scumbuddy Jowy. Who incidentally, when the roles were reversed, didn't have much to say about you either.

I haven't forgotten you my slippery Melbourne friend. Oh no I have not.

- Fencing on Azza, interestingly enough.

Azza - I have thought (mistakenly) that Azza was scum in almost every game, but this game I'm gelling with him a lot. I agreed with most of what he said Day 1, and would have put him as town then - I was a bit surprised that others got scum vibes. But I feel his Day 2 has been a bit of a letdown - skating through a bit. But that's hardly unusual for him I guess. Also, I know Azza doesn't give a damn about what people think about him, so I don't think him delaying his vote while he makes up his mind is really a scum tell on him. I thought his angry outbust after the lynch seemed legit also. But would like to see more tomorrow though.

- Panicking before Day 2 lynch and also in panic mode after it. Well, okay, maybe he felt strongly about MJW being village. But a better reason to be in panic would be if the game is as simple after the lynch as it seems: If MJW dies, it leaves us three targets and two of them are scum. If Matt dies, scum are well on their way to victory. It's worth a little panic if he could only convince just one person to swap. Him trying to convince zak, novice and myself should clear us three if Gaz rolls wolf, so it is another lynch which has the potential to give us a lot of information. As for Gazglum's panic mode after the lynch... We just killed a scum, and we blocked their night kill. It's time for celebration, not for panic. Of course we should keep our game faces on, but I really don't like Gazglum's reaction. He is desperate.

Novice, looks like you get the lesser of two evils choice to make

What we said to Jowy about picking one of the leading candidates, even if they're not your favourite.

Oh, no I misread. I mean Jowy should...and he won't. Shit.

Zak, please switch. Trust your Glumbuddy.

- I think if I was in one of their place (Azarius, Gaz, Azza), I would automatically suspect the other two. Gazglum agrees, but he goes after Azarius, Jkaen, Zak, Jowy... Why not Azza? He finally says Azza has felt "townish", but no reason as to why. Later says it's just because he agrees with Azza. You know what, I also thought Azza felt townish, but I'm not going to ignore the tells in front of me in favor of gut feel.

I understand the logic of looking at Azza, Azarius and me for scum, but I don't understand what makes me the one to focus on.

My top suspects are probably Azarius > Jkaen > Zak > Jowy at the moment. I can see people's logic about Azza, but he's just felt townish to me.

Azza:

- His opening was odd. There were contradictions, but he also explained them well. I gave him a town lean from this. If we only look at his actions and not the reasons he gave for making them, it would fit a scum as well.

classical_hero

Played a few games with him on CFC, and he barely contributes by those standards, let alone RB's mammoth spamalot games. Happy to change if he shows signs of being able to contribute sufficiently though.

Mattimeo, at least be honest that you're voting MJW to save yourself.

Oh for fucks sake, that was an awful lynch. For a start, he was highly unlikely to be online at the end of the day since he's in the same timezone as Lewwyn. Trying to pressure him into contributing in the early hours of the morning (his time) is never going to work. Secondly, his logic was terrible, that I agree on, but it wasn't scummy. I can only assume that he was working on the assumption that a majority was needed to lynch, so splitting the vote would've meant no lynch; otherwise his comments make no sense. Someone playing scum is highly unlikely to make such a huge misjudgment of the rules. Finally, of all the people who voted for c_h, Qgqqqqq is the only one who'd played with him before on CFC. So I can give the rest of them some leeway, but Q should've known that there was nothing unusual about c_h's play. But he seemed mixed up between policy lynching based on his CFC play, and voting based on questionable logic. I think it's telling that the closing line of his eventual vote for c_h is based entirely on his past play. It suggests that it was because he knows that the logic that generated the wagon was highly dubious, so he needs to add other aspects to his vote.

My problem is you're taking what'd be a perfectly valid reason to want to policy lynch (not contributing all that much, expecting it to continue), and tacking on some rather poor arguments to try to paint him as scummy to make sure of the mislynch. I don't know what he was thinking, but even if his posts make almost no sense as village, they make even less sense as scum. The goal isn't to punish bad play, it's to catch the wolves. My impression is your vote was to punish bad play, but making sure you at least appeared to try to hunt wolves.

I moved off c_h because his posts didn't give me anything that resembled a scummy vibe, while Mattimeo's post that I quoted in my vote did.

- High meta talk. Low content. I think he made much better points in the last game, which I remember surprising me (I was quite blinded to them at first due to fighting with him). Now it seems he has regressed, and said he will only get quieter with time. It's not untypical of Azza, but he might be playing up to his reputation like MJW did, especially since both of them referred to old games as justification for their play.

- He does admit that he is having a bad game, but piggybacking on Gazglum does not get him any town points.

I have to admit I'm having trouble picking up scum tells this game because I've been glazing over most posts made by or responding to Jowy and MJW. It's just too much of a headache. I do find myself agreeing with Gazlgum's points, so in absence of a better read I'm favouring going with his logic.

- And of course Gazglum is the highest town rated person on his list, just as he was on MJW's. This point might be nothing, but it does support the MJW/Gaz/Azza scum-trio theory, which is the obvious theory based on the votes last lynch and Azarius' reveal.

So, my vote is pretty much process of elimination. Gazglum I strongly lean town, Jkaen slight town lean, Azarius no current suspicion. Zak and novice I can't get a read on so far because the arguments exchanged with MJW and Jowy are a chore to try to read. At this stage, I can't distinguish between which of those two is more likely to be disruptive scum and disruptive villager. Don't like Qgqqqqq, but can't justify voting for him, particularly when there's no clear support. So that leaves Mattimeo, who hasn't sat right with the things he's been saying.

Not great logic, but it seems the best way to go today.

All in all, Gazglum feels the scummiest by far. I could see Azza being scum, but I don't feel strongly about him.

[Qgqqqqq]

Okay, I suppose I just felt novice/Jkaen were very weak endorsements of him, and I was second guessing myself rather then changing my opinion, but I see how that could've looked like support stacking up for him. Id missed the earlier post (or rather, that wasn't the bit I focussed on ) so sorry for rehashing the same argument.

Seems to imply that the people who weren't voting for MJW were innocent. Which would be incompatible with the view that the wolves tried to save him.

Tbh that was more a rant at everyone ignoring me for most of day 2 and just saying that he was being MJW, which I know Jowy at least and possibly you too used at some point from people voting him, so I wasn't really talking about the actual lunch as it transpired, but rather peoples reads on him throughout (and I presume SOME of you are villagers ).
Fakeedit: I'm sorry if this is getting tiresome.

That was a big problem for me, Jowy spent ages not commenting on anybody except for Novice. At the end of the day he at least gave leans on Azza, Mattimeo, MJW and Jkaen, plus he attacked you. He definitely broadened his viewpoint.

I understand why you believe him to have done so, but you'll understand why I didn't jump to that question given what I spent ages trying to get him to answer. Thanks though, those were the contradictions I kept on wanting to check.
Fakeedit2: I would vote Jowy after that, but he's just posted a very long post that I am not going to read tonight so I don't think that would be fair. unvote

[novice]

I find myself agreeing with Jowy. If we ignore feel and just look at actions, an Azza-Gazglum scum pair makes perfect sense, and we should lynch one of them.

If I add feel to the mix I wouldn't mind lynching Mattimeo, I don't think he's been very helpful this game.

Let's go Azza for now.

[Mattimeo]

Mattimeo, can we get your evaluation of the remaining players?

Something like the one I did earlier this day?

Azarius obviously has less of a scum hint than then.
You've got the chance of being blocked, rather than saved, counting against you in addition to the heretofore unreasonable suspicion.
I've been explaining my stance on Jowy extensively; nothing has changed there.
Gazglum's continually oscillates between "obv-scum" and "over-eager Gaz". Don't know I'm willing to lynch him over that unless it's too keep someone else alive.

Has Azza even done anything substantive today? Offered opinions on anyone? Even his vote on zak is presented as a 'lean', not even bringing up any actual basis for it.

[Azza]

Slowly rereading through Zak's posts to see if I can find something to convince others of my gut feel, but refreshed the last page and saw this.

I find myself agreeing with Jowy. If we ignore feel and just look at actions, an Azza-Gazglum scum pair makes perfect sense, and we should lynch one of them.

If I add feel to the mix I wouldn't mind lynching Mattimeo, I don't think he's been very helpful this game.

Let's go Azza for now.

Do not like this post at all. Have you already forgotten the game where you and I were ghouls and I didn't even let you know that I was also in a neighbour thread?