[SPOILERS] Team Orgynized: Parkin/Arki/Magno embark on a kinky adventure

[Lord Parkin]

Nothing's stopping you from breaking any NAP you want at any time. The penalty is that people will be much less inclined to trust you in the current game - and possibly in future games, depending on the severity of the backstab.

The problem with your thought experiment, at least from my perspective, is that an agreement you're free to break at any time it suits is not really an agreement at all. And if we're not actually agreeing to anything, then we're wasting our time in diplomacy. It would be more efficient simply not talk at all, or to set AI diplo from the start. The point of having diplo on is that two or more parties can make arrangements where they give their word that they will do certain things for certain periods. Neither is forced to respect any agreement, but if they do not then they risk their own reputation as a player.

If you're concerned that a proposal might not benefit you, don't agree to it in the first place - make a proposal you think will work better, or flat out turn it down. If you give your word to an agreement which at the time seemed mutually beneficial, only to later regret it, that's on your own head. You can either roll with the situation you've got yourself into and be more careful in diplo next time (the most common outcome), or you can choose to disrespect your word and let your reputation suffer the consequences. The choice is always there, but most players prefer the "shrug it off and do better next time" approach than the "win this one game at all costs and to hell with the future" approach.

[WilliamLP]

"It would be more effective not to talk at all" isn't a real argument. In the thought-experiment world where NAP-stabbing were commonplace and expected, there would still be plenty of reasons to communicate a lot more than is possible in AI-diplo. Alliances could be suggested, trades (present and future) negotiated, information revealed, all the same things as normal except that you couldn't be absolutely sure someone couldn't turn it all around on you. There would still be plenty of mutual value and greater than zero pairwise relationships.

It's interesting to me how the current state of NAP-politics may hinge on a shared perception that breaking one actually reflects on someone's character as a person. (Even though we're manipulating bits with absolutely zero other consequence outside of the game world.) Or at least that's how I view it - it looks to me like it goes beyond pragmatism to the game or even future games. I suspect human instincts are involved.

This shared perception is seldom challenged, but I wonder if it could or should be. The pragmatic aspect, trustworthiness, maybe would change if the culture were different, and it was expected that NAPs have limits? (E.g. a most extreme case where if someone leaves borders literally undefended and you could literally take half their empire in 1 turn and nearly auto-win the game from that point.)

Another point is that I wonder if diplo games would be more interesting for everyone if the whole metagame changed this way. Or maybe just if there's a middle ground between AI diplo and a metagame like this, that would be more fun than simply an AI diplo game. Or our emotions are just too sensitive and hard-wired to deal with any of this.

[Lord Parkin]

Finally a proper response from Maga/Asterix:

Hi Orgynized,

As I said to LP on chat, I am terrible sorry and embarrassed, I was for a long time playing this game in a kinda zombie mode As I was brutally backstab by my own teammate - whom I trust completely and thought I knew him well - I become paranoid about founding a replacement whom I can trust to honor my commitments. And I can assure you that Asterix is a honorable guy, I know him in RL, so no nasty surprises this time. The only problem is that he never played a game like that and tells him he is a civ player, not a diplomat, so I will probably step in for diplo, but to bigger extend next week. I have a huge deadline at work this Monday - and I am a mother of two yung kids, who recently are sick most of the time, so things have been pretty crazy recently, even without civ troubles.

I am sure it was very disappointing for you, as we were hoping for "special relations", but hopefully not much practical damage was done, at least I hope so.

As I said to LP on skype, I was in a pretty bad shape some time ago and apparently forgot to sent you a response to your last message. It was somewhat obsolete now, I was just saying that since you know only one civ, EP agreement does not seem feasible on your side, but that I would take EP from you since i can.

The other part is still a concern, though - you wisely suggest I will not disclose we have a long term NAP - but how you envision it in practice? I am not comfortable with denying it - I mean lying - so do I just say we have a NAP with you, but will not tell how long?

You were also asking about our relations with Native Americans - they actually offered us NAP to turn 100 first and then even extended it into turn 135. I would not read too much into this, though, we have started to negotiate with them earlier, under "previous management", and their team have undergone complete personal change, too, so it may be the explanation.

Last time we communicated, we had just a NAP until T40 with them, I guess it got extended?

If you are interested in another news form our part of the world, as I said Yuufo is our Western neighbor and he is expanding like crazy - 5 cities on T50 . That is obviously concerning, probably to everybody, but definitely to his neighbors.

Congratulations on ultra-early Stonehedge! Should I also congratulate you on an early religion?

I hope I will be more available starting next Tuesday, but due to time differences, chats my still be challenging - I am on US Central time. If you need any information or anything quick, best to leave Asterix in-game message, this is the kind of diplo he is used too .

Warm Regards,

Maga with Asterix

[Lord Parkin]

Turn 50

Diplomacy

Eagles & Condors requested Open Borders, we accepted.

Domestics

We founded Hinduism in Katniss.

Started the Settler in Hermione.

Demographics

We're way up in GNP due to the double prerequisite bonus for Pottery, plus the culture from Hinduism.

Care Bears, Dinosaurs and E&C got techs. Blame Caledorn and GG got pop growths. GG whipped 3 pop in one go?

Cannibal Ponies founded city #2. EggHeads founded city #3. Care Bears founded city #5.

Care Bears - T28, T37, T42, T50
EggHeads - T33, T50
Blame Caledorn - T33, T46
Eagles & Condors - T36, T43
Gladiator's Glory - T38
Margarita - T38
Bowsling - T38
Dinosaurs - T39
Orgynized - T42
Cannibal Ponies - T49

[Lord Parkin]

Turn 51

Demographics

Blame Caledorn, GG and Care Bears got 1 pop growth; E&C got 2.

[WilliamLP]

We're supposed the be the orgy civ, so why are there so many little care bears being created? Is 5 cities by turn 50 some kind of record? Are they last place in GNP yet?

Congrats on Hinduism! It does delay pottery a bit but I think it's worth it if you can get it this late. And it doesn't look like your micro plan depends on very fast granaries or cottages. Do you know the tech direction after this yet?

[Dp101]

Yay, religion! This should help us REX out to catch up. I assume that is what we are going for, yes?

[WilliamLP]

It's especially nice with Henge and the basically free Great Prophet we get in 50 turns, for the shrine income and double random religion spread, without even having to do anything special for it.

[Lord Parkin]

Turn 52

Build and movement plan for the next few turns, as I may be without internet the next 3 days. Arki has said he can play the turns if I'm unable.

Tech: Pottery -> Priesthood -> Writing

Lance should move north to defend Pussy while she chops; a new Warrior will be built on T57 which should stay in Hermione to maintain happiness.

Make sure working all 3 food resources at Hermione on T55-56 while building Granary.

Don't found city #3 (Xena) until AFTER the chop has gone into the Granary at the capital on T56.

[Lord Parkin]

Proposed reply to Margarita.

Hi Maga and Asterix,

No worries about the delay, but please have the courtesy to give us a quick heads up if you'll have a prolonged period of absence again.

Sorry about how the EP arrangement worked out... Eagles & Condors were active in diplomacy while you were away and secured the EP agreement instead. We should be meeting another team shortly, so we'll finally be able to shift our espionage focus.

With regards to NAP secrecy, we suggest to either not to discuss it with other teams or just to say we have a NAP and leave it at that. It's not necessary to oblige nations who request the exact length of your NAP's - it's fairly private and powerful information after all.

The Native Americans came to us a while ago looking to extend our NAP, as it seems they did with you. We currently have a NAP to T120 with them, so it looks like they're staggering their end dates with us in case we both decide to attack them later. Not to worry, we could always arrange something closer to T135 if we both want.

We noticed about the Care Bears' crazy expansion... that's certainly a bit of a worry. It must suck to have them as a neighbour, though at least maintenance should be hitting them rather hard right now. As far as we can tell they seem to be at least a tech behind most other civs already. Let us know if there's some way we can help out - though given our distance I'm not sure we can do much right now.

Thanks for the congratulations on Stonehenge. It was not really "ultra-early" though - it's gone around 3000 BC (T25) in some games. You're correct that we founded Hinduism as well recently... if you're lacking a religion down the line then perhaps we could arrange to send a missionary your way.

Kind regards,
Orgynized

Will apologise in advance for a delayed response.