[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[LiPing]

Me, to Mortius

Hello Mortius,

It's a Korean warrior, I think if your scout were to go two squares west, you would see our current position (both warriors on a hill SW, SW of that tile, and they have the right to move first,) I have had some trouble coming to any terms with them (they wanted a 100 turn NAP, signed immediately and also all the land between my capital and theirs, so... I felt that was no good.), and according to them, their capital is 8 tiles westwards of mine)

I moved 4 squares west, I believe your scout can see one of the reasons why Originally I planned to go only two squares, but then I uncovered that, which would have been just outside the boundary, and went a bit further. Do you do any demographic work and if not, would some information on what other people's terrain is like, their technology research and builds be of some use to you?

I would like to be radical and suggest that I am willing to agree to a game long NAP/treaty, or however long you would find appropriate, as you say, if not for anything else, the amusement factor and the "Warmonger's Club" idea

Unfortunately I think at the time you would be online, I will be at work and unavailable, it will be around 9:00AM my time and I will be at the office, sorry

With regards to land (if I am still alive, of course ) The only city I plan currently, is I would like to settle at the original starting spot I was at (approximately 4 tiles east of my current capital), I haven't actually been able to scout and have been wandering around my own capital, so that original spot and where I am at now is the only part of the map I have uncovered. I would preliminarily suggest something perhaps that we could just do something like draw a line between the two capitals (I am assuming that if I don't die, I should be able to do something about Korea) and call everything on the side closest to you be yours, and everything on the other be mine, with some modification if necessary, by agreement?

LiPing

[M.Prince]

Lurker checking in to say I'm greatly enjoying your writeups!

With a potential coinflip gamble and the beginnings of an Aggressive alliance, things are looking real exciting.

[LiPing]

I am glad

[Elkad]

For the benefit of the lurkers who aren't reading the other threads, can we get a brief recap of the spoiler info? I'm guessing they posted something in the tavern or IT threads and edited it afterwards?

[novice]

Broker posted the chat quoted in post 47 in LiPings thread in his RBP1 spoiler thread, introducing the quote with a few paragraphs containing his interpretation of the chat.

What LiPing read from this introduction was, as far as I can tell:
a) Broker thought LiPing was onboard with conceding land between the capitals to Korea, an idea that LiPing in fact found offensive.
b) Broker thought LiPing couldn't be trusted.

This is my interpretation of LiPing's interpretation of Broker's interpretation of a chat, though

[Pox]

Another lurker here very much enjoying the write-ups... keep them coming! I won't be saying much, though, as I'm fairly thoroughly spoiled from a few other threads.

[LiPing]

broker0033: hey I was just going to sen email
getting tired

LiPing: fair enough, the timezones are a bit of a pain, agreed

broker0033: After much discussion with plako we would like to take the 60 turn nap with an agreement neither of us settle the zone between us without further discussion
a 1 and 3 chance dosent seem the best choice at this point

LiPing: any other conditions to go with it?

broker0033: such as?

LiPing: well, I would want the first 10 turns covered by immediate DoW followed by immediate 10 turn peace

broker0033: worried we will ninja you?
we plan on sending the warrior west

LiPing: for both our benefit, I need to go look over the 'buffer' zone if we are doing this and it happens to mean that I will be wandering towards your capital

broker0033: but we can accomodate the 10 turn enforced peace

LiPing: since I cannot see clearly what 'the zone between us' is and all
(right now, I see two silks, a river, and that's it)

broker0033: There is a cow also

LiPing: this cow is then, in the black zone towards your capital from these two silks W and SW of the hill?

broker0033: cow is nw of the hill a couple tiles

LiPing: wait, then are you NW or SW or me?

broker0033: sw abit
basicaly west though
basically wont settle towards each other

LiPing: then I am not really sure why this cow is in the buffer zone?

broker0033: You still intend to settle west?
we were going to settle north and west not east until an agreement was made

LiPing: I want to get an idea of what you consider a buffer zone, because I can see NOTHING
and I want to make sure that we're on the same page with what we consider buffer zones

broker0033: I envisioned an just east and west no idea how far north then land is havent been up there

LiPing: because when I read buffer zone, I think it means the area directly between

broker0033: well warping around us to the north and squezing us to the coast would not be in the spirit of a buffer zone dont you think?

LiPing: again, it's hard to agree without being able to see any land

broker0033: you should have pleanty of room for your first city east and a former capital spot. I am not thinking it is much of a hardship

LiPing: so basically in essense, the buffer zone is the entire strip N-S?

broker0033: yes you can look around if you like but we would not be settling that zone unless it was discussed with you either
We havent been very far north but I am guessing it dosent travel far unless we also have northern neighbors

LiPing: I have a slight theory, based on the coastline shape, assuming it's natural

broker0033: care to share?

LiPing: but it would mean, if it's correct, that I need a few squares westwards allowance
well, north-westwards allowance, not straight west

broker0033: what is a few?

LiPing: 2 or 3, and it would be more north than west

broker0033: why?
hard to agree without knowing

LiPing: exactly, this is the problem I have with you wanting immediate NAP and border agreement
well, try firing up each of the map scripts for regular games, and look at them in worldbuilder, see if anything stands out and if you come to a similar idea as me

broker0033: you seem intent on settleing in our direction. Odd when you have open land to your east
we are operating on the same restriction. I do believe it is fair

LiPing: now, what if there happens to be nothing east but ocean?

broker0033: I doubt that you have a neighbor over there remember

LiPing: that, is north east

broker0033: besides you have your former capital site which would most likely make a very good city site
This is not forever just until scouted and can make informed decisions on a split

LiPing: that, has 10 tiles of water

broker0033: Ok it is late and I need to sleep
we seem to be going in circles here
are we going to come to an agreement? It is a fair offer

LiPing: what is the provision though, if we cannot come to terms after scouting?
like, is the whole thing now void or what do we do?

broker0033: We can adress that later or in 60 turns fight over it? It is one city away from each other in reality
Ok I am tired and this is getting frustrating. You can hash this out with plako when he gets up. I really need to sleep soon
I had thought we had an agreement and I was just agreeing to it now it seems it is changing

LiPing: I like to cover every base for a proper agreement before signing, in case there is misunderstanding or problems with it later

broker0033: It is a basic short term agreement if you want to hash out details talk to plako.
I really need to go to bed

LiPing: ok then

broker0033: I will post this conversation. Just dont understand why you are changing the agreement at the last moment

LiPing: because I don't feel it's very good for me after the accidental read, I know you think I'm unreliable now and so you are probably going to build a lot of troops and I too need to build a lot of troops

broker0033: Like I said we wanted a longer term agreement so none of that would be necessary. You dont want one and seem to want to settle our direction

LiPing: if you think I am going to be an unreliable ally, how can anything longer be possible?

broker0033: that is not what I said. I said you would follow through your commitments but after they expire ... meaning I dont know
anyway let me goto sleep

LiPing: I thought I saw something like, you thought I would be a bad choice for an alliance

broker0033: are you going to talk to plako?
Or should I tell him there is no deal?

LiPing: when will he be around?

broker0033: he is in europe
he will play the turn and has final decision

LiPing: hm
well, deal if one thing
neither your first city or my first city, are to go north

broker0033: talk to him I am going to sleep now

He is frustrating, and I am sick of this. Can we just play CTON or Always War next time?

I don't want to concede a whole strip running N-S because after looking at a lot of map scripts, I am thinking this may be a Donut, that I am at the SE point of, and that the natural distribution would be to cut 'slices' towards the middle, so I would end up seriously down in land area from a straight N/S cut. The exposed coastline and the snowy trees with the huge amount of grassland looks about right, although there is that weird looking grassland forest, and grassland to the SE of my starting spot, and they don't fit, unless it's some gimmick where it's been drawn in and Iron is over there... or something. Other things I am thinking of are a weird Inland sea, with a lot of editing, or an Arboria with a lot of snowy trees edited in... but I'm leaning towards saying that the simple solution is probably the most likely (Occam's Razor).

[LiPing]

To Plako:
I am sorry, but...

I feel that games are meant to be fun, and this process for me is anything other than fun, to be honest, it's quite stressful, and I can't really take it anymore. I feel that Broker can't see my point of view, and I can't see his, perhaps it's my English or for whatever reason, but that's the outcome.
Additionally (unfortunately) because of the wrong post which I saw, I am finding diplomacy very difficult to try because I know he thinks I will be an unreliable long term ally.

But anyway, I really don't want to talk about this anymore, and I am sick of arguing/negotiating, so I give up. If you want that 60t peace, where I don't settle any tiles west, you don't settle any tiles east or whatever it is supposed to be, then declare on me and offer peace, if you want to flip, just go NE, and if you want no agreement, then do whatever, either way, please just leave me along for a few days.

LiPing

Seriously, Mortius was like... so easy. No problems, no argument, no saber rattling, just... done. Just like that. End of story. What am I doing wrong here that I am not realizing, that makes this such a horrible pain?
Right now I feel like I just want to go, goal of game: Kill Korea, achieve that by any means possible, vassalize to Mortius or whatever, do whatever he wants, and call it good.

[LiPing]

[Rant]
Like this is what I am seeing:

"We are scared of your unique unit. We therefore want a peace treaty for the time period where yours becomes inferior and ours can run you over in combination with elephant. And we want it signed NOW."

"We are not willing to guarantee the security of your border with 10T enforced peace, in fact we do not see why you should want this, we are perfectly reliable, and we are looking for a long term partnership even though we are quietly saying behind your back that we think you are unreliable."

"We want you to cede all this land which you cannot see."

"We expect you to make a decision on that land based on what we tell you is on it."

"We are going to give you bad information about that land, unless pressed."

"We are not willing to wait until you see the land for you to make your decision."

"We wish to dictate where you can and cannot settle in land not visible to us."

"If you apply the same rules to us that we are applying to you (eg: you want a land allowance based on what we can't see, that is UNACCEPTABLE"
[/Rant]

[LiPing]

Oh and:

plako.plako: Hi

LiPing: I sent you a pm, I can't take this anymore, so please just go based on that, on the forum, I mean

plako.plako: yeah I've read it. It is always stressful when playing against humans. Long NAP helps quite a bit
I've only 5min before I had to go

plako.plako: I don't understand why you want us to start war and then sign peace. I'm going to keep my word, if we wgree upon something

LiPing: I honestly don't really want to talk about this anymore for a while, I'm sorry, but I'm really frustrated with it all, and it was also a way I could see what the result would be without having to talk again.