WW29: Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

[zakalwe]

I'm a little tempted to vote for MJW, but apart from that, I'm not finding any of the "low hanging fruits" to be all that scummy yet. So I think I also need to hear more from the big guns, i.e. Novice, Meiz, Serdoa, and Lewwyn.

Lewwyn made a nice and funny opening post that didn't actually commit him to either side of the "night talking" debate.

Allow me to tell you where I stand on the night talking. For me it depends. I think talking aids scum. It lets them know who suspects who and who is going to be active in the game. What does the village gain? Nothing IMO. All we get is a jump on the discussion of the day cycle, but at the cost of seeing who is invested in the game.

The person who should have died last night if he were a villager should have been zak given that he was active and apparently trying to rouse the village to arms. Granted Scum could think he is being protected by the doctor. Rowain as a kill makes complete sense because during the night he revealed himself to be active open minded and very villagers IMO.

I am not trying to say we should lynch zak because he lived through the night. My suspicion of him rests entirely with zak saying he was interested in jkaen's theory and that he was going to think about it when in fact that theory was completely, completely ridiculous. Village zak would have shot it down. Scum zak doesn't want to hinder a Jkaen on MJW crusade. Village zak also knows that MJW is ridiculous and prone to the exact stream of conscious thought posts and meta posts that MJW made at the beginning of the game.

Additionly I do believe that zak was trying to get the village to talk in order to see what people were doing and who would be easy lynch bait. However, I am not resting my case against him on that because I can see why villagers would think that speaking at night would help.

First of all, my accusation about your opening post there was not a strong suspicion by any means; that was just my standard philosophy of trying to give some reason for suspecting someone whenever I try to pressure them. Otherwise the vote lacks credibility and is much easier for scum to just ignore. Though I guess what you're doing here isn't so much defending against my accusation as using it as a springboard to attack me. (Which is fair enough; I'm just telling you how I'm parsing your post.)

I do get a slight scum vibe from the way your rhetoric goes "I'm not saying X, but blah blah blah, so in conclusion X".

I agree completely with this: "Rowain as a kill makes complete sense because during the night he revealed himself to be active open minded and very villagers IMO."

So why are you saying I am the one who should have died?

Your last paragraph is a very weak accusation against me, and it's another accusation where I have to doubt the sincerity. You really think I would go out of my way to get people talking, as scum? Especially considering the context, where I would be scum for something like the 7th time in the last 10 games? That's the same accusation that Serdoa leveled at MJW, btw. You acknowledge that this is a weak accusation in the same breath that you're making it, so it would be better to leave it out. By leaving it in, it just serves as bait for others who are looking for reasons to suspect me.

On the flip side, I can also see how your play so far makes sense if I put on my town-tinted glasses. You think talking at night is bad, but you've got a strong town read on MJW, so you feel the need to chime in on that particular issue, because you don't want the seer to waste a scan on him. And you follow this up by suspecting me today, since I didn't do enough in your mind to shoot down the weak case on MJW. Is this an accurate summary?

[zakalwe]

If scum-MJW didn't see the PM's, he would have no way of knowing that the villager PM had the "Abilities" - part.

Where is the evidence that he knew that? He just said Brick expanded in the PM, which can mean almost anything.

I can think of reasons why Brick would be annoyed at MJW even if MJW is scum (he did say Brick sucks), but I don't really think we should be going down that path. I am fine with your conclusion that MJW's opening play is more likely to be genuine town play than a scum gambit, even if I don't think it clears him. We can discuss the shades of grey and exact likelihood but I'd rather move on.

[Meiz]

Without the Abilities part, there is nothing expanded in the pm.

[Meiz]

Ok, I guess the win condition can be counted as expanding... I'll let this rest as well.

[zakalwe]

Well, like I said, it would have been nice if MJW had answered what he meant by "expanded" since there are many ways to interpret that, in my mind. So long as the village PM didn't just say "Town" then there was bound to be *something* in it that could be viewed as an expansion of what was stated in the rules. I really don't see it as incredibly risky to just state that there's something in the role PM that could be exploited to clear yourself so long as the role PM isn't public. That's virtually always the case, and the reason why the role PMs should be posted publicly in the first place.

Previewing: Good.

[zakalwe]

I think you left out one of the possibilities. Its the last one there.

Continuing with the catch-up... don't do this, Goreripper. Editing other people's posts and passing them off as genuine quotes is incredibly annoying, and for someone skimming through, like I did earlier, it's not so easy to catch, so it can be downright misleading.

[zakalwe]

My town lean on Zakalwe aside I would like to hear his thoughts on Jkaen.

I didn't think he did anything scummy yesterday, and his early vote for me is par for the course, although I obviously wanted to hear the reason (which I have now got). I have a town lean on him at this point.

Novice, it seems like you have cast some nets, but some stream-of-consciousness posts from you would also be good, just to help us read you.

[Mattimeo]

Where is there even expansion in the vanilla town mail?

Vanilla Townie
Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Vanilla Townie.

Abilities:
Your weapon is your vote, you have no night actions.

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Villager.
Abilities:
Your weapon is your vote, you have no night actions.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

[Lewwyn]

It's annoying to try and deal with such long quoting so I'll try to address the important points.

Yes I was ignoring your attack on me because... there wasn't one? Not really. Which I also found to be a bit suspicious, but didn't say so in my previous post.

I do get a slight scum vibe from the way your rhetoric goes "I'm not saying X, but blah blah blah, so in conclusion X".

Except that's exactly what I was trying not to do. I specifically said that I'm basing my suspicion of you based on a post that is very, very lazy scum zak.

So why are you saying I am the one who should have died?

Again this is an observation that I specifically said is not why you are suspicious. If you are a villager then scum likely were choosing between you and Rowain. There is a doctor in this game and I think as scum you are cognizant and would attempt to be as worthy of the doctor's save as possible as a possible excuse as to why you are still alive.

Your last paragraph is a very weak accusation against me, and it's another accusation where I have to doubt the sincerity. You really think I would go out of my way to get people talking, as scum? Especially considering the context, where I would be scum for something like the 7th time in the last 10 games? That's the same accusation that Serdoa leveled at MJW, btw. You acknowledge that this is a weak accusation in the same breath that you're making it, so it would be better to leave it out. By leaving it in, it just serves as bait for others who are looking for reasons to suspect me.

I believe you are scum and I believe you were fishing for information last night. But I also recognize its not a strong argument. I specifically stated that. I would be remiss, however, not to say whats on my mind.

On the flip side, I can also see how your play so far makes sense if I put on my town-tinted glasses. You think talking at night is bad, but you've got a strong town read on MJW, so you feel the need to chime in on that particular issue, because you don't want the seer to waste a scan on him. And you follow this up by suspecting me today, since I didn't do enough in your mind to shoot down the weak case on MJW. Is this an accurate summary?

No.

This:

My theory was he didnt notice the PMs if they were already there (given Bricks reaction i think they were not) and took a gamble that there would be something in the village PM he could claim he was refering to when questioned. That way he tries to get meta cleared which may have been the only way the thought likely to survive to the end

Ok, I need to think about that, but it doesn't sound entirely implausible, under the assumption that MJW actually thought the role PMs were missing (even if they weren't). The "default" counterargument is that he'd be likely to double-check for those role PMs before posting anything about it if he's scum.

is not you not doing enough to shoot down a weak case. This is you openly giving possible credence to a bizarre idea that MJW is gambling on the possibility that Brick made a mistake. The fact that you even consider this as a possibility disqualifies you as village Zak in my eyes. "I need to think about that"? Forget everything else, which I also said in my earlier post. This is the reason you are scum.

[Lewwyn]

I think you left out one of the possibilities. Its the last one there.

Continuing with the catch-up... don't do this, Goreripper. Editing other people's posts and passing them off as genuine quotes is incredibly annoying, and for someone skimming through, like I did earlier, it's not so easy to catch, so it can be downright misleading.

It's a shame you couldn't warn him in the scum thread during the day.