WW29: Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

[zakalwe]

There is also motivation for both Zak and novice. Rowain has genuine issues with them being together in a game, and is likely to attack either one. So it would not only be Zak being angry about the last game.

I didn't see any indication that he wanted to pursue a Novice/Zak policy lynch or anything like that. That was Ichabod's strategy, in any case. Rowain just urged us not to defend each other all the time, to give room for dissenting opinions.

Bis Repetita non placet

Just for the record, this means something like "the things that please are those NOT repeated". (Or "repeated twice is not acceptable", according to Google translate...)

Same question to Zak. I get that if you're villager, you don't see the implication for yourself. But why do you think suspecting GoreRipper on having the motivation is something we should ignore?

I think I have answered variations on this already, but just to be explicit: I got town vibes from Rowain yesterday, and I also respect his scumhunting abilities, so I don't think it's surprising that he was killed. So his death doesn't do much to implicate anyone at all. I agree that it would be possible for Goreripper to sense that Rowain was suspecting him, but any case based on Rowain being dead is still a fundamentally weak one.

[zakalwe]

I would be remiss, however, not to say whats on my mind.

That's OK, to an extent, but if all that's on your mind are bad reasons to suspect me then I don't think you need to spend so much time enumerating them. Like I said, all you're doing with that is to give an opening for others to latch onto one of those bad arguments.

This is you openly giving possible credence to a bizarre idea that MJW is gambling on the possibility that Brick made a mistake. The fact that you even consider this as a possibility disqualifies you as village Zak in my eyes. "I need to think about that"? Forget everything else, which I also said in my earlier post. This is the reason you are scum.

He wouldn't have been gambling on Brick making a mistake. He would be thinking that Brick already did make a mistake, by not posting the PMs, and taking a slight gamble to exploit that mistake, for a potentially huge payoff. That's not a bizarre idea in my mind, even if I agree that it still violates the fancy play theorem.

So please open your mind and reassess.

[zakalwe]

I need to try to get some work done now. Novice can have my vote, since I still don't have a strong read on him.

[zakalwe]

Tally as of post 133:

3 votes: Serdoa (novice, Goreripper, Jkaen)
2 votes: zakalwe (Lewwyn, Meiz)
1 votes: Zak (MJW (ya that one))
1 votes: GoreRipper (Jowy)
1 votes: Novice (zakalwe)

Voting history:

zak

goreripper

GoreRipper

Lewwyn

Zak

Serdoa

Serdoa

zakalwe

Zakalwe

Serdoa

Novice

[Meiz]

There is also motivation for both Zak and novice. Rowain has genuine issues with them being together in a game, and is likely to attack either one. So it would not only be Zak being angry about the last game.

I didn't see any indication that he wanted to pursue a Novice/Zak policy lynch or anything like that. That was Ichabod's strategy, in any case. Rowain just urged us not to defend each other all the time, to give room for dissenting opinions.

Rowain commenting on the previous WW lurker thread regarding his decision to shoot you outright:

Here you ere. It was reading my Mafia role which made me to reconsider. But then I thought What the heck the reactions will be interesting anyway so I went through with it.

He basically says he planned to shoot you right away if he'd roll a villager.

[zakalwe]

Well, I try to think the best about people, so I actually tend to think he was lying about that. But that's neither here nor there. He did state explicitly in this game that I had nothing to fear from him, and he gave no hints at all about suspecting me or wanting to policy lynch me. I'd say what he posted in this thread should be given more weight than what he posted in that thread.

[Lewwyn]

I wanted to address your response to the quote I pointed out here:

The reason I didn't shoot this down was that one aspect of it made sense to me. First of all, I think MJW genuinely didn't notice the PMs in the opening post at first, and I think it's possible that could have happened even if he's scum. And he did make a very open-ended statement about what was in the village PM, which could be retrofitted to describe anything once the actual PM was posted (which he had to expect would happen). So if he wanted to make a bold gamble, the vague way that he phrased his claim about the PM made sense. Also, MJW has defeatist tendencies as scum, and is IMO more likely to make a potentially game-winning gambit if he feels the odds are stacked against him and thinks that's the only way to pull through. So based on this, I didn't think Jkaen's theory deserved to be dismissed out of hand.

On the other hand, I can clearly see that this theory is a bit "out there", in terms of moving parts, fancy play theorem, etc. And I did point this out immediately, i.e. in the very same post, by stating the default counterargument.

The issue here is that you are defending your comment now by saying that there one part that made sense. I honestly can't see that. Even your explanation of why it made sense to you is just... really out there. What are you are claiming is that you got caught up in Jkaen's theory and actually went further down the rabbit hole in your own mind and then came back to Jkaen and said "ok".

But then you claim you already new it was crazy and you displayed the counter argument. But isn't that exactly what scum would do? Show both sides with out completely shutting down all possibilities? We get on people all the time for wishy-washy voting reasons and that is EXACTLY what this is. Fence-sitting on a crazy theory. One that you yourself have just pretty much shut down. And yet you say okay.


Coming back now and working out the explanation is your classic defense. You try to justify not shutting down Jkaen's comment by saying you shut down someone else's that you didn't agree with (And people this is important to note):

I also followed up shortly after with this, shooting down another accusation against MJW which didn't make sense to me:

I believe he stated that "no nighttalk" just because he thought that is what village would do while he himself talked regardless because he hoped to get everyone else to talk as well.

I don't think mafia would be particularly eager to get people talking on night 0. I think they'd be content to lurk through the night if the mood seemed to allow it.

So I wasn't trying to pave the way for a MJW wagon. I shot down the arguments that I disagreed with, but there were aspects of Jkaen's case that I didn't disagree with.

Are you kidding me? You didn't shoot it down. You were basically defending yourself! You are also one of the people trying to get people to talk at night so obviously you disagreed with the idea that you were scum. You can't hold this up as proof that you shoot down ideas that you disagree with. Your entire defense on this is weak.




And Zak if you are a villager, who is your top suspect? Is it still me?

[Lewwyn]

I see you've moved onto novice... because you don't have a strong read?

I actually think that the case on Serdoa is very weak and that he's a villager.

[Meiz]

Well, I try to think the best about people, so I actually tend to think he was lying about that. But that's neither here nor there. He did state explicitly in this game that I had nothing to fear from him, and he gave no hints at all about suspecting me or wanting to policy lynch me. I'd say what he posted in this thread should be given more weight than what he posted in that thread.

The comment he made was very strong. So I agree that he might not be that radical in this game, but to me it's clear what he thinks about you two. That might be enough for you or novice to want to get him out of the picture.

Btw. you vote count has MJW voting separately for "Zak"

[zakalwe]

Are you kidding me? You didn't shoot it down. You were basically defending yourself! You are also one of the people trying to get people to talk at night so obviously you disagreed with the idea that you were scum. You can't hold this up as proof that you shoot down ideas that you disagree with. Your entire defense on this is weak.

I would obviously also disagree with the idea if I'm town. Why can't I hold this up as an example of shooting down an idea? You think I shot that down because I wanted to preemptively defend against this accusation that you would be making against me next day? Why not allow Serdoa to suspect MJW instead? If I wanted Jkaen to do it, why not sic Serdoa on him, too? You think he is town, after all, and he sure knows how to drive a wagon.

About the whole "coming back and working out the explanation" angle... you are the one who singled out my statement that I needed to think about something and said that makes me certain scum. So I have to tell you what I was thinking in order to defend. You can't have it both ways.

Novice is still in my potential scum bin, and I want to see more active play from him, so that's why I'm voting for him.

Meiz - to summarize, you think I'm scum because...?