WW29: Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

[Goreripper]

Also Jowy it is now less than a day until the deadline. I would love to see that case on me. Or are you just waiting for someone to make a case to jump on board with?

[novice]

Goreripper, why were you so eager to get me to admit to a positive bias towards Zak if you already had a town lean on him?

I'll back this up with a vote. Goreripper

Yes a clever trap where you get to show off how useful you are we get it. Let us take a trip down memory lane to the post though.

I guess we're talking, then.

Are we meta-clearing MJW for a post where he refuses to exploit meta to clear himself?

I actually found his attempt to paint Zak in a bad light pretty scummy.

This did stand out. Novice you do realize the Ichabod case from two games ago keeps being made by this kind of thing right? Why is the dumb MJW attack on Zakalwe pretty scummy? It might seem amazing to you but other players in this game do sometimes see Zakalwe as a mafia possibility.

I am not saying I agree with his attack on Zakalwe. Or even can understand it without my head hurting. But I do not see it as pretty scummy.

My problem was not with a defense of Zakalwe. It was with an attack on MJW just for his usual useless babbling insane attack on Zakalwe. Basically you were biting lynchbait. There are only three reasons you did this.
You are scum and happy to have a nice lynchbait target.
You are reflexively defensive of Zakalwe and took his attacker more seriously than he deserved.
You actually assumed some sort of pretty scummy cognition on the part of MJW.

I believe it is the second which means your tasty bite of MJW was due to taking him more seriously than his meta game attack on Zakalwe deserved. Because you take Zakalwe attacks seriously always. Even if it is a loon honking at him in a way that worries nobody sane.

Thanks for the answer novice. Your restatement of MJWs attack makes sense and yes it is bad.

You know, you could simply limit this post to a question on why I find MJW's attack on Zak scummy. Invoking the Ichabod rules gives the impression that you want to discredit me. And why would you want to do that?

Because I would like you to admit you have a bias for Zakalwe? I am not trying to discredit you in general we all have biases. Lewwyn allows himself to engage with Jowy and he is just gone. I try to read MJW and all I can hear is a humming sound. A bias for your brother is healthy and says good things about you both as family. But I just look twice any time you leap to defend him because it is there.

Looking at the last MJW post. See Rowain the crazy guy who is talking at night agrees talking at night is terrible.

For the record, your trip down memory lane ended up at the wrong post, Goreripper. It was the second post that I'm quoting where you mention my Zakalwe bias.

At any rate, I'm glad you get how useful I am to town. As for you, your explanation fits the posts you made, although most of what you're explaining now was not explicitly stated in them, so it could be clever backpedalling.

Zakalwe, you wanted stream of consciousness: Well I don't have any strong gut feelings really, so that's why I've avoided them, I haven't felt they'd be useful nor worth my time. Everybody can be scum.

Just to give you a few soundbites - I'm innately suspicious of Lewwyn. And FWIW (very little) Meiz's thoughts on nighttalk resonated with my own, his thought processes matched mine (I initially felt nighttalk would only help scum, but came around).

[novice]

In short, his play today reminds me of his play on day 2 of WW28.

So you found my day 2 play in WW28 scummy?

[Goreripper]

Thanks for the answer novice. Your restatement of MJWs attack makes sense and yes it is bad.

You know, you could simply limit this post to a question on why I find MJW's attack on Zak scummy. Invoking the Ichabod rules gives the impression that you want to discredit me. And why would you want to do that?

Because I would like you to admit you have a bias for Zakalwe? I am not trying to discredit you in general we all have biases. Lewwyn allows himself to engage with Jowy and he is just gone. I try to read MJW and all I can hear is a humming sound. A bias for your brother is healthy and says good things about you both as family. But I just look twice any time you leap to defend him because it is there.

Looking at the last MJW post. See Rowain the crazy guy who is talking at night agrees talking at night is terrible.

For the record, your trip down memory lane ended up at the wrong post, Goreripper. It was the second post that I'm quoting where you mention my Zakalwe bias.

At any rate, I'm glad you get how useful I am to town. As for you, your explanation fits the posts you made, although most of what you're explaining now was not explicitly stated in them, so it could be clever backpedalling.

I understand but the imputation of bias was in the first post. The second you quoted was an expansion.

I appreciate your questions because they force me to explain and expand on my thinking actually novice. I am a very intuitive person so that will be the start of most of my observations.

[zakalwe]

In short, his play today reminds me of his play on day 2 of WW28.

So you found my day 2 play in WW28 scummy?

Not at the time, since I was scum and just assumed you were town. But in hindsight, your play on that day was a bit lazy, and similar to my own lazy scum play. You set a trap for Goreripper back then, too, and essentially used it as an excuse for staying out of other discussions. On the face of it, at least.

In any case it feels a bit like you're trying to nail Goreripper on a technicality here. Which is exactly what I tried to do then.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Zak.... Yes it's the eagerness. Maybe I'm projecting myself on to others but I really feel that people really care about fairness when it helps them. I mean care about in an emotional way not just as something that is necessary.

Novice seems to be lurking a bit. I'm not sure if that is his style. He's only true attack was against goreripper. He did vote serdoa for not posting and me for being inane but those attacks are weak. I think Zak is saying that he suspects novice for playing like a survivor. But that doesn't mean much as novice always plays like a survivor like in ww27 were Rowain explicitly said that novice deserved to get lynched because of that.

Goreripper, it's not about the metagame at this point. Rather it's zak's reaction to the metagame issues I'm concerned with...

How does Zak normally play, people? This is a normal game and therefore Zak should be playing normally if he is a villager? Is it normal for him to " not really pushing anyone, hedging my bets, and pulling my punches" at the start of the game before the shit really hits the fan? I usually just don't pay attention to the first days because someone almost always gets themselves killed rather then getting lynched in the games I've played. Zak also seems to be focused on being liked rather than wolf-hunting but that would be so easy to see incorrectly if he playing just like he says...

Serdoa, if you always suspect me, it could get really bad. The wolfs could just keep you and me alive and wait until you mislych me. And then set-up a mislynch on you. As I've said before this game I would shoot you at once in ww28.5 so opted out. This meta-game reason is not good enough if I suspect someone of being a wolf but if that doesn't happen you could make a decent lynch from my perspective... When have you defended me Serdoa? Other players who could have died N1 are Novice, Zak, JKaen, Miez and lewwyn so it is very plausible that the wolfs took out Rowain for a reason....

[BRickAstley]

Tally as of post 176:

3 votes: zakalwe (Lewwyn, Meiz, MJW (ya that one))
2 votes: GoreRipper (Jowy, novice)
2 votes: Serdoa (Goreripper, Jkaen)
1 votes: Novice (zakalwe)

Voting history:

zak

goreripper

GoreRipper

Lewwyn

Zak

Serdoa

Serdoa

zakalwe

Zakalwe

Serdoa

Novice

Goreripper

17 Hours Remaining.

THis is my first time using novice's tool for vote counts, if this looks to be done incorrectly, let me know.

EDIT: Please use the person's actual forum name if you could for the votes.

[Lewwyn]

I have to admit when I woke up this morning I was thinking, "I wonder if novice is scum." Honestly, Zak's choice to pressure novice was one of the few choices he could have made to get me to reevaluate. So I'm doing that. One of the nice things about a small game is that its easier in the sense that you can eliminate people you think are innocent and focus on a smaller pool. I know I am innocent that leaves 9 people. Of those:

MJW
Jkaen
Jowy
Serdoa

I lean innocent on. That leaves,

Zak
Novice
goreripper
Meiz
Mattimeo

as people in my current possible suspect pool.

Mattimeo will you please cast a vote.

[Mattimeo]

Mattimeo, if Night 0 was actually a Night 1 in your opinion, that means this is day 2 and you don't get to lurk anymore.

Then I cede to your wisdom; 'twas clearly Night 0

Mattimeo will you please cast a vote.

aww

MJW is MJW. I'm close to meta-clearing him for the early night stuff, but the manner in which it was done half makes me want to specifically vote for him if that's the primary reason he's cleared. Haven't seen anything particularly out of character from him, though, so I can't really attribute the multitude of tells to malice.
Don't really understand the Serdoa wagon? Backlash against voting for 'anti-town' play rather than 'scum' play? Have to fundamentally disagree that such a backlash is warranted; people need to learn how *not* to play, and the only thing that gets through to some people is being insta-gibbed for as long as they keep up bad habits. Serdoa has felt a little... off, but not in a way I'd expect were he scum. #117 feels closest to his normal style, and it provides adequate explanation for any issues I'd otherwise have with him.
Goreripper's vote on Serdoa I'm really not fond of. Seems to come out of nowhere, and not much justification other than sheeping novice almost immediately after the latter's vote. The rest of his stuff also lacks a fair amount of content; it's mostly the jokes / failed attempts at jokes that stand out, both in memory and on re-read.
Interesting argument against zak for the subtle encouragement of crackpot theories. Agreed that the response seems more indicative of covering tracks. Can't really find who came up with it, though, just the later discussion about it. Can't escape my mind that the argument seems specific enough to be one the scum lovingly crafted overnight to nab zak today, though :/
Jowy: crackpot theories are crackpot. Still more useful than MJW. Though that's not exactly a spectacular achievement, by any means.
Jkaen: similar to above.
Meiz' most notable impact seems somewhat circular discussions with various people. Slim chance of scum trying to kick up dust.
Novice is interjecting useful points and questions here and there, as usual.
Lewwyn is doing an excellent job of being Lewwyn.

Goreripper for now.

[zakalwe]

That's the wrong shade of red for MafiaHelper, Mattimeo.

MJW, Goreripper is right that I was eager to play. So I may have come across as eager, in general. In my own words I wouldn't say that I was eager to get the rules changed though - I was just restating your argument against me. I did want to get any rule changes or clarifications out of the way as soon as possible, which is why I brought it up right away. And you are right that I wasn't regretful. If the rules are flawed, we should just fix them and move on; no need to cry about it. What I would regret would be if the game eventually turned into a farce because of a flawed rule set that we could have fixed at the outset.

Anyway, we really are debating this to death. All I can say is that you're misreading me.

Lewwyn's shortlist looks OK to me, even if I feel Jowy and Serdoa also need to step it up a little.