[LURKERS] Sweet 16: Civ Party Fun Time and Philosophical Debate

[Bobchillingworth]

[...] it doesn't change the 'early fighting is best for those on the sidelines' problem if that is indeed universally true.

It might not be universal though- I really have no idea how much the bias against rushing is based on hard reality vs. perceptions built on the basis of a handful of poorly-run civs. Maybe Kublai Khan of Greece or whatever would be awesome if played correctly. If a leader like that had enough success in practice it might shift the RB metagame away from the crazy obsession with starting techs and setting up "snowballs". I can't comment authoritatively on it, I haven't lurked half the BtS games here and I'm no expert as a player.

[suttree]

It might not be universal though- I really have no idea how much the bias against rushing is based on hard reality vs. perceptions built on the basis of a handful of poorly-run civs. Maybe Kublai Khan of Greece or whatever would be awesome if played correctly.

Paraphrasing another: it has nothing to do with how well or poorly a 'rush' civ is run. So long as it is cheaper to defend than attack, the meta is always pushed to a peaceful early game. In a game with many players, if your neighbour builds X military units, you build X-1. He gets no (lasting) benefit because X-1 beats X on the defense. You save the cost of one unit and gain an economic advantage. And so on, until the 'bias' against early rushing evolves.

Of course, if you build X and your opponent builds nothing, things might work out differently. Opponents are weaker or stronger and are paying more or less attention to the game. But the meta or 'bias' is what it is.

[Jowy]

Enable diplo. Players can now work together against runaway civs. Games become more exciting and winners aren't decided just by early snowball (though it still plays a big part). I think reducing the impact of luck in these games is a very positive thing, but diplo is all about skill, not luck. It might not be civ skill, but skill nevertheless. I know, I know, we don't play with diplo because of the drama, and after this PB16 thing I kinda see the light on that. Just theorizing.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Enable diplo.

Diplo is certainly a way to adjust for player skill and can, it turns out, work to reel in a runaway. So maybe that's a positive (that's a whole debate on its own, whether it's a good thing or not). But if you enable diplo in a vets game around here the primary result will probably be seeing interest from veteran players evaporate before the game gets started. Diplo games simply require too much time to find enough people willing to play it, or at least that's the way it seems from my reading of people on this forum. I know I wouldn't be interested in a diplo game, in spite of the fact that it'd be a way for a marginal player like myself to be (possibly, but not likely) more competitive in the game. I just don't have the time to commit to doing diplomacy these days and I'm surely not alone in that.

[offtopic] Maybe this isn't directly applicable, but PB14 is a diplomacy game, so if anyone is following that game maybe they could post in the lurker thread over there how they think the diplomacy element is effecting gameplay versus the RB norm. Then again, with a lot of players not from RB maybe it won't be an apples to apples kind of comparison anyway. [/offtopic]

Edit: fixed the game number. Thx Q.

[Qgqqqqq]

[offtopic] Maybe this isn't directly applicable, but PB15 is a diplomacy game, so if anyone is following that game maybe they could post in the lurker thread over there how they think the diplomacy element is effecting gameplay versus the RB norm. Then again, with a lot of players not from RB maybe it won't be an apples to apples kind of comparison anyway. [/offtopic]

You mean PB14.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Yeah, probably. Oh yeah, 15 is the pbem that tastes like a pitboss.

[sunrise089]

Re: diplo - I probably favor it, but it obviously has some flaws as of its own. I do tend to this the time commitment to diplo is overstated especially compared to micro and C&D work players already do, and I think diplo has gotten a bad rap in part from some vocal strong players who dislike and/or are bad at it.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Maybe I wasn't doing it right but the one diplo game I played in (29g) I spent tons of time chatting with the other players and that was just a 4 player game. I can't imagine the chat sprawl that would be necessary in a larger game, not even one the size of 13 or 16. I'll agree, there are positives to diplo, it can be fun, but it can be incredible time investment. And what's this micro/C&D you're talking about anyway?

[Jowy]

Amount of talking needed depends on the players themselves. If everyone thinks you shouldn't spend hours on it a day, then they aren't going to spend hours on it a day. Or at least I would hope that they have the self-control not to if both sides think it's stupid :P

[Serdoa]

I don't think the time investment is the sole - or even the most important - reason for why diplo is generally frowned upon. Its certainly for some a reason too, but the actual issues come from other points. For one where there is diplo there are NAPs. Then you have alliances - research blocs if TT is enabled - and dog piles. Those lead to "suboptimal" play being better, as getting a lead early will get you dogpiled. That does not necessarily mean that the dogpile will work of course, but it shifts the focus. Good play is suddenly not rewarded but playing just decent enough to stay middle of the pack and getting others to attack the better players is. That's very frustrating for those playing good. From my experience most diplo-games led to the players not anymore playing under the mindset of "I want to win" but instead "I want to make sure xy does not win".

That's pretty much the reason I don't want diplo anymore. I love it in theory, but in practice it was just frustrating. And honestly, if you play against a player that is so much better that he runs away with the game you better just call it and start a new one. And hopefully you learned something so that he won't run away again. Or you play with others on your skill-level.