[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[LiPing]

Rather do the Rice first, the Gold would be very ugly to work from size 2, it'll make the growth quite 'ugly' to work it, while it'd be quite allright to work at size 3, also it'll waste a worker turn walking from the deer, to the gold, to the rice, instead of the other way around (unless of course, you get weird forest growth on the turn you try to move... but yeah... 0.2% odds there, and there's two routes to the gold, (via moving from Rice - N-N->NW-N or W-NW->NW-NE so unless that happens, or somehow forest grows over both tiles... but in that case, eh, there's 40 more hammers worth to chop, so it's not something I'd complain about.)

I don't think there's really much point to alternate between barracks and warrior, (I only had the barracks on the plans in spots where I wouldn't get time to finish the warriors without losing invested production after 10T of no progress, buildings keep it for a lot longer (something like 50T I think), and other people won't be able to see that switch happening without meeting you, and espionage points. (The tech is visible to everyone using demographic screen, and were/are mainly being delayed to disguise the start - the reason for the hunting delay is because hunting gives 2000 soldier points, like a warrior, and I had it to go on our turn 8(global turn 10) so that it would be 'reasonable' to have been using 2/1/0 tile to make a warrior, for possible bluff value in case anyone came wandering by - of course, that turned out to not be relevant or useful, probably wasn't convincing, since the only tech it could reasonably have been assumed to be was Mysticism, and it didn't help Mortius either, but that's just how it goes. I tried at least . The agriculture delay is basically... uh... well, because I can - it doesn't cost anything and has the possibility to be confused with something else, (Sailing, Masonry etc) which has a small advantage, if anyone's trying to keep tabs on what I've been up to, and putting out 7-turn agriculture would have been a giveaway on what I did with hunting, so I didn't want to do that.

If there is useful copper, then I would also take wheel first, otherwise whatever would seem to make the most sense in that situation - maybe wheel, mysticism... AH or archery, depending... (I was leaning towards being very bloodthirsy, taking iron, picking it up with the third city, assuming it wasn't in that cross-shaped area of unforested tiles around the lake, next to the original starting spot - and yeah, this is significantly metagaming based on being on a designed map, instead of a random one, and trying to make Korea dead ASAP after turn 67) but that's probably thinking a bit too far ahead, and maybe optimistic. I'm pretty doubtful copper would be right on the doorstep though, the area already has a lot of resources (4) and again for a designed map, I just don't feel like that kind of grouping would have been left there, or made intentionally.

[LiPing]

Crossposted, heh.

I don't really like prioritizing that south spot, all it has going for it is a crab, it won't be able to make anything anytime soon, and strikes me more as the kind of economic city I'd prefer to settle, after they are dead If you can split the buffer zone and want to settle it, I'd much rather let them settle the crab, and instead try and settle a spot say, on the hill E of the cow, it has six grassland hills and food to work them all, so it would be a great production city, and this one is 4 tiles from your capital and 6 tiles from theirs, instead of being equidistant, so reasonably, the claim to it should be stronger. (But they were horrible pains about the idea of me settling ANY tiles west, even if it was something like 6 tiles north and 1 tile west, so you might have a uphill battle trying to negotiate that )

[Whosit]

Hmm, yeah, that's not a bad spot by the cows, though the rice looks irrigated, which is a pain. Rice is the weakest of the grains, so far as I can tell. But, yeah, powerful production site. What are the chances of metal on one of those hills?

That might be a good first spot, though I still eye my river-bend spot as a commerce location. Might get beat to it, but I suppose if we're planning for war, a production city is higher-priority than commerce.

On the other hand, if I tech Mysticism, settle River-Bend, and chop out a monument real quick, I'd get some zone-of-control, but I couldn't completely control the production site.

It would be risky, but what about chopping out a couple of Settlers to try and claim both sites quickly? Though our capital doesn't have that many forests.

I suppose I don't want to write off a commerce spot too long. And, I guess I just want to control that buffer zone. *evil grin*

Maybe it would be better to go for Production, chop out another settler while the capital builds a couple more warriors, then try to grab river-bend. Then announce, quite cordially, that Rome as acquired all the land we desire in that region, and graciously leave the rest to the Koreans.

Edit: I haven't received a reply from Korea yet, even though Broker has posted in his thread. I wonder if they're just considering a response? It will be disconcerting, to say the least, if I do not get a relatively quick reply.

[LiPing]

No idea. But it'd be +6 food with dry rice and cow, and there are 6 hills, so it'd be at size 8, making 21H/turn, and it wouldn't be necessary to take the annoying Mysticism immediately (already going to need to take Animal Husbandry for that site, it'll operate fine with just the first ring with the current happy cap)

River bend is... on top of the northern silk, right? Thinking about that south end, and the idea of placing the cow city, I'd actually be tempted to settle another 1-tile-off-coast-no-lighthouse-crab city 1N of that hill, and call it the commerce site. (You can sort of tell, I lack appreciation for seafood)

I'm almost sure it won't work trying to make two settlers - It's a human opponent after all, not an AI, so they'll probably want to make fast Settlers too. Granted, there's a 3 turn lead currently (and maybe + 0.5 more turns if they opt to not move their newly built worker to the wheat and farm, since if they do that, you could send them "Your head would look good at the end of a pole", and jump their worker.) but that lead is not going to stretch far enough, I don't think, and even if you do get both sites, there'd be a bad lack of guards for them, and lack of workers to even cottage them, so they're not really that useful to have immediately. The capital is probably going to end up as a commerce/science site too, since it has the gold, grasslands, food... and only one other hill - it's not going to be too easy to build anything out of there either (9H/T, I guess, is not bad, but not amazing, and worse than most capitals would be.)

[Whosit]

Hee, crossposted with LiPing it seems:

Oh, those are silks there? It was hard for me to tell without the resource pop-ups, so I may make a different decision in that regard.

Personally, I dislike 1-tile-off-coast cities, especially if sea food is in range, so your placement for the capital makes me feel funny. Not that I think it was a poor decision, just not my style. Just means I'm probably not likely to do the same thing myself.

Thanks for pointing out the Settler race stats. I was thinking of making the capital a production site with farms and workshops, though on second thought that wouldn't be terribly efficient.

Oh! Got my response. Let's take a look, shall we?

Greetings Whosit of Rome

We did indeed have a difficult time comming to agreements with the previous ruler of Rome. We did however come to an agreement of a 60 turn NAP ending turn 66 with a no settle between us clause until further discussions could be had. We trust this is still in effect and look forward to developing a long lasting mutually benificial relationship with Rome.

It is our belief that early conflict will harm both nations and should be avoided. We are aware your eastern neighbor has been destroyed by their eastern neighbor whom we believe to be the Inca. We however have not been able to scout to our west and have no knowledge of our western neighbor.

It is our desire to develop a long term relationship that benifits both of us and allows us to expand quickly and support each others endevors. Down the road with trust developed we have some ideas on unit trades to benifit both our defense.

Please take a moment to look around. We understand you want to get a better handle on the current situation before opening discussions.

We can be contacted either via PM or email

Hmm, I forgot about the NAP. The No Settling Clause could be tricky, but I'll just have to start negotiating on that once I get a few turns in. Unit trades. Interesting. Since no tech trading is allowed, that seems like one of the few ways to promote trade relations, aside from trading resources.

Regarding settling again: This must have been Li's sticking point: The "in between us" clause. That could be interpreted in several ways. For now, though, I think that means that I'll try to quickly settle the production site. As far as I'm concerned, that is not "in between us." I'll try to negotiate dividing up the river zone.

Anyway, a friendly response and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. The 60 turn NAP isn't too bad. I should be able to get the required techs for Praetorians done in that time. Well, we'll see how it goes, yes?

In the meantime, I'll just respond so that they aren't left hanging.

Dear Broker33 and plako,

Thank you for your swift response. I too agree that developing an early antagonism towards each other can only serve to weaken us both. Rome has yet to scout into the east, so no contact has been made with these so-called "Inca." If we make contact, I will be sure to let you know so that we can decide what the safest course of action would be.

Also, thank you for informing me of the NAP. I am still getting up to speed, so I was not aware that we had a treaty in place. Again, I feel that I will need to take a few turns to get fully acquainted with my empire, but at that point I would very much like to hammer out the details of this land between us.

I hope that our relations will remain cordial and I look forward to future dealings.

Best regards,

Whosit, Dictator of Rome

Forgot my tagline last time.

[Whosit]

Well, I played my very first turn of multi-player Pitboss! :2dance:

Exciting, but not much happened. Moved my warrior 1SE. I want to get on that coastal hill to fill in the blanks in this region, then head NW again. The warrior in the capital (maybe I'll rename it? I can't even remember the capital's name) will finish next turn. The Deer camp finished, so now it's 4/2/0. The rice will be done next, then the Gold.

Y'know, it was very tempting to see a vulnerable worker and an empty capital right behind him. I was soooooo tempted to go for it. Fortunately, my ethics kicked in, and I didn't. Then, I remembered that I had that NAP! Ha ha. If I took the Koreans out anyway, I doubt anyone would trust me ever again (in this game or others).

So all I have is another map screen shot, but this time with the resource symbols so I know what's where.



So now I can clearly see that my river bend site would be ON the silks. I thought something might be there, but I wasn't sure before. Silks would make it more valuable for commerce. I could put it on the hill to the east, but it would overlap too much with the capital.

Bah, I'm thinking too far ahead. I don't even have a Settler yet!

[LiPing]

They actually moved to the wheat before you moved? Gee, how brave. To tell you the truth? If it was still me, I'd just have taken the worker, because I feel that the Korea NAP is worth nothing, based on past history, and their slipup where they posted that they thought I'd be a useless long term ally, I kinda felt they were just trying to get me to sit still long enough to get out of the Praetorian operating window and into the Elephant/Hwacha window and run me over so - might as well pre-emptive strike, gain 60 hammers and a bunch of worker turns, and put them -really- behind. I'd actually be tempted to move it back and see if they still leave it there

Well, anyway... you'll need to change the tech to Agriculture to finish it next turn, so that the worker can start on the rice. Also, I think that Koumakan is on 'manually assign all population' (or whatever the option where the computer doesn't pick the tiles automatically is called), in case you hadn't noticed, so be careful when the size increases.

PS: When moving to the gold, you can avoid the forest growth possibility with warrior #3 - it'll come out on the right turn to walk it onto one of the empty grassland tiles the worker needs to pass over to reach it on the next turn.

And yeah, my idea of 'inbetween us' is the general area encompassing the two silks, and the crab. I found it greatly ridiculous that they considered the cow, and in fact ONE square west, irrespective of how many squares north, inbetween.

[Whosit]

I respect that you would have taken the Worker, and it certainly was tempting (mainly because it was then ONE MORE MOVE to an empty capital), but I am a man of my word, so I'll wait out the NAP. Honestly? I'm not sure that killing off Korea now is worth my reputation, even though I'm sure you're right and they're just trying to stall. I figure if I attacked and destroyed them, there would be a lot of "hey, the new guy broke a NAP! Never trust him again!"

Only one chance to make a good first impression . . . THEN stick the dagger in their spine.

Thanks for reminding me about the Agriculture, I would have forgotten. Oy, it's confusing, all this flipping!

Edit: Played the turn. Rumia moved SW to the hill, which just revealed blank coast. Oh well, still good to know. Swapped to Agri, that'll finish next turn, then go ahead with Bronze Working. Warrior will finishing next turn. Another Warrior, right? I'll check the charts.

I also edited our Civ details. I noticed that you called us Land of Fantasy but had a lot of nonsense in the rest. I filled it in with "Fantastic." So now if you mouse over our territory, it says "100% Fantastic." Sounds about right to me. I declined to rename the capital, for now.

Since you're still around, Li, I have a question about your city plans. Why a second Worker before the Settler? It would be my inclination to get a Settler out first. 3 Warriors in a row is cautious, perhaps wise, but if the goal is to grow to size 3, maybe unnecessary, though I guess it would let us work the grassland hill (and mine it). Hmm.

My suggested modification would be, for now, the 3 Warriors (well, 2 now), then a Settler. 1 Warrior, probably this one, will stay and guard the capital because I'm a bit paranoid. The next will head northeast to scout. The third will head northwest to start fogbusting for the Settler, while the scouting Rumia will do the same. If it all works out, we should get a second city relatively quickly. Then, grow to size 4 (the hill should be mined), do a Worker, then Barracks/Warrior, whatever. If we find Metal, get another Settler for that. Or something. Improvise a bit, heh.

Edit 2: If we DO have Bronze, we could always Axe-rush them? If there is Bronze, I'd do Wheel, then Iron Working. Otherwise, switch it.

[Whosit]

T19 is complete. Agriculture done, Warrior 2 done. Koumakan (hopefully I can recall the city's name without looking it up sooner rather than later) is starting on the next Warrior, due in 5. On with Bronze Working, Worker to Rice, yadda yadda yadda.

I'm sending Warrior 2 out to scout. Actually, I should name him. I'll do that a bit later. I won't go far, but as of now, the closest fog is 3 tiles away, so if I make sure that our Warrior can get back that quickly, should be OK. I want to know what is to our northeast, maybe meet some new, possibly friendly, people.

[Whosit]

Whoops! I was hoping to go a few more turns without addressing this, but I think that they have forced my hand.

Hi Whosit,

We really appreciate the peaceful attitude you've shown towards our nation. I hope we can soon start negotiations concerning our border and maybe also do some common longer term plans. Please let us know when you feel ready for this.

We've also small request for you. Could you consider not moving your warrior to NW next turn. Although we have you found very trustworthy, presence of foreign warrior close to our worker makes us feel minorly uneasy. I hope this request isn't too much to ask.

plako

Hmm. I'm really not sure what the wisest course of action here is, in so far as laying out a plan. In the end, I've decided to lay out my plan in full, so there's a lot of words here. Maybe I should have kept my cards close to my chest, but I'm hoping that by putting MY plan on the table, I'll have strategic control over the final agreement.

A little bit of role playing at the beginning and throughout. Personally? I find it fun, but maybe they won't take me seriously? I believe one can role play and play a strong game, too.

Dear plako,

Good to hear from you, as always. How are things in Korea this time of the year? Here in Rome, the Land of Fantasy, things are superb (though I am starting to question the aesthetics of my predecessor ).

First, I would like address the issue of my warrior, Rumia. I will be moving NW next turn because that is the direction in which I need to scout. I do understand your concerns, because I imagine that your Worker will be finishing up his farming project. I suppose I could never offer a guarantee that would fully satisfy you, so all I can say is this: If I intended to commence hostilities, I would have done so three turns ago when I could have captured your worker, and then marched on an undefended capital the very next turn. We have a NAP in place, and I intend to honor it.

Our close borders are certainly the stickier issue. I had hoped to find that we could both easily place cities between our capitals to provide a buffer for our core cities, but the space is unfortunately too cramped. I have been thinking of possible solutions and compromises, however, so I imagine that we will have much to discuss.

The "contested zone," if I may call it that, or perhaps the "in between zone," appears to be the space directly between our two cities, with a southern border at the coast, and a norther border at the river.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned, the land is too cramped to fit two cities that can each have access to their full big cross. However, I do not think that means we should let this land go to waste as an unsettled "neutral zone." I believe that there is room for two cities, though they would be spaced north and south. The southern one would likely be on the coast, and would pick up crabs, the northern one may have the silks.

I have given this some thought, and my solution for splitting the land would be this: The southern coastal city could be placed on the grassland hill 1 NW of the crabs, and the northern one would be placed ON the silk (on the north side of the river bend).

Both of these locations seem best suited for commerce, however, they are not equal. The southern location, using the crab, would be able to grow much more quickly and thus work its riverside cottages more rapidly. The northern one has no food sources, and could not make full use of the Silks until some means of harvesting them is developed.

Personally, I consider the southern location the superb choice. With no tech trading allowed, getting a head start on commerce, and faster growth (which also allows for whipping) is quite more valuable than a few extra coins down the road. That is why I am willing to offer the coastal location to you and take the northern location myself.

Furthermore, I think the geography makes these choices natural. Each city would be defended from the other civilization by the river, which forms a natural border. There would be some overlap of the big crosses, of course, but each should retain control of their small cultural area.

I must apologize for the length of my letter, but agreements like these cannot be written briefly. Please let me know what you think of this deal. I believe that it is the best way to settle our common borders without wasting precious land.

Best regards,

Whosit, Dictator of Rome

Apologies to LiPing re: the opening line. I thought it was a good ice breaker, though.

So, lurkers, any thoughts? Did I make a wise move, or a foolish move? I'm hoping the insistence on scouting NW won't cause many problems, but I looked at the map, and any other move would put me too far out of the way. Each turn is precious!