EitB 33 tech thread

[DaveV]

An attempt to even out varying leader strengths by giving extra food/commerce to weaker leaders and less food/commerce to stronger leaders. See second post.

Other settings:

No huts, no lairs!
AI diplo
No tech trading, no vassal states
No Acheron, no Orthus
No Stasis (Illian WS)
Immortal difficulty
Quick speed
No Enter Portal spell
The Tsunami spell may only be cast by a unit which is on an Ocean tile

Players and emails (DaveV, Bobchillingworth, superjm, and the tracker are at gmail (dot) com, Tholal is at yahoo (dot) com, The Black Sword is at mail (dot) dcu (dot) ie):

Tholal (tholal)
The Black Sword (ben (dot) quigley2)
superjm (jman2050)
Bobchillingworth (Bobchillingworth)
DaveV (rbdavev9)
Tracker (eitb33)

The tracker web page is http://mistbinder.org/tracker/tracker.php?game=ffh33

[DaveV]

OK, here's my list. It's not meant to be definitive, but a starting point for discussion.

Code:

Name                    Civilization    Traits             Food     Commerce
Alexis                  Calabim         PHI/AGG            -1       0
Amelanchier             Ljosalfar       PHI/RAI            0        -1
Arendel Phaedra         Ljosalfar       SPI/CRE            0        -1
Arturus Thorne          Khazad          IND/ORG/ING        0        0
Auric Ulvin             Illians         CHA/ARC/AGN        0        0
Averax the Cambion      Sheaim          AGG/CRE/BAR        0        0
Beeri Bawl              Luchuirp        IND/FIN            0        -1
Capria                  Bannor          SPI/FIN            0        0
Cardith Lorda           Kuriotates      PHI/EXP/ADA        -1       0
Cassiel                 Grigori         PHI/ORG/ADA        0        0
Charadon                Doviello        AGG/CHA/BAR        +1       +1
Dain the Caswallan      Amurites        PHI/ARC            0        0
Decius                  Bannor          ORG/RAI            0        0
                        Calabim         ORG/RAI            -1       -1
                        Malakim         ORG/RAI            0        +1
Einion Logos            Elohim          PHI/CHA            0        +1
Ethne the White         Elohim          CRE/ORG            0        +1
Faeryl Viconia          Svartalfar      ARC/RAI            0        -1
Falamar                 Lanun           EXP/CHA            +1*      0
Flauros                 Calabim         FIN/CRE            -1       -1
Furia the Mad           Balseraphs      CHA/RAI/BAR        -1       0
Garrim Gyr              Luchuirp        FIN/ARC            0        -1
Hannah the Irin         Lanun           FIN/RAI            0**      0
Jonas Endain            Clan of Embers  SPI/EXP            -1       0
Kandros Fir             Khazad          AGG/FIN/ING        0        0
Keelyn                  Balseraphs      CRE/SUM            -1       -1
Mahala                  Doviello        EXP/RAI/ING        +1       0
Os-Gabella              Sheaim          SPI/SUM            0        0
Perpentach              Balseraphs      CRE/CHA/ARC/INS    -1       -1
Rhoanna                 Hippus          EXP/FIN            -1       0
Rivanna the Wraith Lord Svartalfar      ORG/SUM            0        -1
Sabathiel               Bannor          ORG/CHA            0        0
Sandalphon              Sidar           PHI/IND            0        -1
Sheelba                 Clan of Embers  AGG/ORG            -1       0
Shekinah                Sidar           CRE/ARC            0        -1
Tasunke                 Hippus          AGG/RAI            0        -1
Tebryn Arbandi          Sheaim          ARC/SUM            0        0
Thessa                  Ljosalfar       EXP/ARC            0        -1
Thessalonica            Elohim          SPI/IND            0        +1
Valledia the Even       Amurites        ORG/ARC/ING        0        0
Varn Gosam              Malakim         SPI/CHA/ADA        0        0
Volanna                 Svartalfar      AGG/EXP            -1       0

* If not on coast; else 0
** If not on coast; else -1

Dec 2: changed Amurites and Sheaim from +1,0 to 0,0
Dec 7: changes per discussion with TBS

[jalepeno]

Just posting to let you know I'm definitely interested. But it's the last week of the semester so I don't have any bandwidth to look at this until at least next Thursday. I like the concept though

[Qgqqqqq]

Very late, but I think this concept needs bigger effects if you're trying to equalise players, which could also make it interesting - run it like PBEM32 and 37, with buildings and so on rather then small changes, in the mentioned scenario Decius would still easily have the upper hand (in the early early game a quick RoB fire would power up the capital and destroy the lead, later on it wouldn't matter because the vampires get loaded up on toys).
Instead, give Charadon something interesting to boost him, like a free Alchemy Lab (we don't want to overpower his production/unit xp, but tech is his weakness). Luchuirp might get a Obsidian Gate (for mobility, but doesn't kick in for a while because they have a strong early game), Ljolsofar could get a half dozen forests added to the cap, including resources (which has pros and cons due to improvement build time, but Ljolsofar are quite strong anyway). Ameliancher might get a bear cage too (+1 happy). Khazad could start with a Money Changer (fits thematically and rather strong, giving both extra gold and some extra happy). Sheaim might start with a level 3 Mind 1 adept (would eventually earn enough for skeletons, but mostly just inspiration/early academy), and so on. Would need a lot of balancing, but would offer a different experience.

[The Black Sword]

Ok, looks like I'm signing up here.

I like the small changes idea better than big changes tbh. I think we can all still accept that the options will never be totally fair but the small changes just gives some incentive to use a weaker choice. Big changes is too much work and hopefully EITB isn't too far off.

If we did want to do something radical like you suggest Q, I think we'd be best off just asking a lurker to remain unspoiled. We make our picks and they get sent to the lurker, who at this stage doesn't know who plays which civ. The lurker then assigns bonuses to each civ in a way he perceives to be fair and fun.

I'm pretty cool with any pick method though, I'll give some thought to your list Dave when I get a bit more time.

[The Black Sword]

Thoughts:

Do the elves really deserve -1f handicap? I haven't seen much of them in the recent games I've lurked, that early game is pretty tricky for them. Putting them on par with the Svarts(with the exception of Volanna) seems fine.

Is the difference between the Calabim leaders so big? Flauros in particular could be upgraded, don't know why he'd be weaker than Alexis at least, if anything it should be the other way around, Phi loses some power without elder councils.

Illians rating depends heavily on a Stasis ban.

I'm not sure if the Elohim need +1f.

Furia should be -1f IMO, she's still a Balseraph with reasonable summoning traits.

Luichurp - I need to check the current state of their mud golems, can't remember right now.

Maybe Tasunke deserves -1c instead of -1f?

-1c for Sidar leaders?

-1f/-1c for Jonas? Exp Clan terrify me more than anything else truth be told.

EDIT: +1c for Decius of the Malakim.

[DaveV]

Thanks for the comments, TBS.

Do the elves really deserve -1f handicap? I haven't seen much of them in the recent games I've lurked, that early game is pretty tricky for them. Putting them on par with the Svarts(with the exception of Volanna) seems fine.

I've always thought of the Ljos as being a bit better than the Svarts, mainly because their worldspell is so much better. Both elven civs benefit greatly from the brokenness of Fawns. Maybe the other Svart leaders should get a penalty?

Is the difference between the Calabim leaders so big? Flauros in particular could be upgraded, don't know why he'd be weaker than Alexis at least, if anything it should be the other way around, Phi loses some power without elder councils.

I think Decius > Flauros >> Alexis, but Great People is a weak part of my game. Flauros is still pretty good, maybe -1/-1 for him as well as Decius.

Illians rating depends heavily on a Stasis ban.

True. I'm assuming Stasis is banned, although I didn't state it in my settings post.

I'm not sure if the Elohim need +1f.

Maybe not, but I can only remember one game where they did much of anything (Ilios in XXI, and I wrecked that for him in one turn ).

Furia should be -1f IMO, she's still a Balseraph with reasonable summoning traits.

I think I agree.

Maybe Tasunke deserves -1c instead of -1f?

-1 commerce might be worse for him, since his traits are not great for economy. Maybe promote Rhoanna to the -1/-1 club?

-1c for Sidar leaders?

Maybe. They have won a game, after all. I probably underrate them (again, weak on Great People).

-1f/-1c for Jonas? Exp Clan terrify me more than anything else truth be told.

A good bit of the Clan's strength lies in picking up lots of techs with their worldspell, IMO. No huts/lairs weakens them considerably. Jonas's strength may depend a lot on difficulty level; I'm thinking Immortal because the barbs have real trouble defending their cities at any lower level. Can Jonas tech enough to make city spam work at that difficulty?

EDIT: +1c for Decius of the Malakim.

Varn is stronger, so I agree.

[The Black Sword]

Checking the Luichurp, the mud golem is 33% cheaper in the current EITB, so I think they deserve -1f too.

I've always thought of the Ljos as being a bit better than the Svarts, mainly because their worldspell is so much better. Both elven civs benefit greatly from the brokenness of Fawns. Maybe the other Svart leaders should get a penalty?

MotT is better, though the svarts have other little advantages, agriculture > exploration, Sinister > Dextrous, Alazakhan > Gilden(debateable though since Gilden is earlier). I'd prefer leaving them even, a 1c difference if you really think it's necessary.

I think Decius > Flauros >> Alexis, but Great People is a weak part of my game. Flauros is still pretty good, maybe -1/-1 for him as well as Decius.

Switching Flauros to -1/-1 sounds good.

Illians are probably correct with Stasis banned. I suppose there's nothing wrong with leaving the Elohim alone and seeing how they do.

I'm probably under-rating the Hippus a bit, I don't see them as too scary because they don't have any economy boosters, except of course Rhoanna's awesome traits. I prefer leaving her -1f but I don't mind too much. I think the -1f will have a lot bigger effect, food-hammers in your capital are more important than commerce and those resources will be hooked up earlier too.

I had bypassed the settings for some reason, I agree with them all btw. Still, I'd be more scared of Jonas than Decius but I'm happy to leave -1f as well.

[DaveV]

OK, I updated the table. All elves are now -1c, except Volanna who's -1f. Elohim are now +1c instead of +1f. Luchuirp are -1c, as is Tasunke.

[Kuro]

Not gonna join, but just wanted to say this is a cool idea.