[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[novice]

I have no idea if this is a wise or foolish move, but I'm looking forward to their response with interest. During LiPing's earlier negotiations Korea and Rome didn't really seem to be on the same page, so let's see what the situation is now.

Regarding the warrior move: You've already proven that you should be trusted, so now it's time to see if they are able to show that trust.

[Whosit]

Well, I received their reply. I was waiting all night for it!

Dear Whosit,

I'm very happy to hear your suggestion concerning the settling and that your further confirmation that you indeed are going to follow our NAP and not threaten our worker.

When considering settling, I strongly feel that we have more rights for the areas between us since you've moved your capital 4 tiles towards us and there should be plenty of room to expand in the east e.g. your former capital spot and areas not claimed because of Zulus being eliminated. On the other hand I also recognize the need to make some compromises and also that it might be bad to have "unbalanced" situation where we have all the buffer city spots. I'd like to switch the city sites around so that we settle north and you south and make small adjustements to their positioning. Furthermore I'd like to prolong our NAP so that we can concentrate on other things than building our defenses now.

All in all I suggest following package as our border agreement:
* Prolong our NAP to last until turn 120
* We settle northern city 1NW from the northern silk
* You settle southern city 1N from the crabs
* During NAP: Open Borders agreement right away when other party has researched Writing. We both have a right to send at most 2 observers on other players land
* During NAP: No excess military near other players border


Best regards,
plako

Honestly, it's about what I expected. For once, I won't be replying immediately. I really need to think about what to say here.

I knew they would want to switch the north and south sites, because I had no doubt that they would recognize the strategic significance of the northern location. Unfortunately, their proposed spot would interfere with the production site that I want.

I could still settle that site 1N, BUT it would not have the same strategic significance as 1NE the Cows. I don't want to hem and haw over the deal, and making a fuss over that would surely tip my hand. I suppose my only choice may be to play a bit underhanded and take the spot in violation of the deal later (the production spot, forcing Korea to settle a bit further south).

Prolonging the NAP could be an issue, too. Turn 60, the current one, is OK with me because I should have Iron Working by then. Turn 120 is more risky, because the Koreans will most likely have THEIR unique unit.

I'm really not sure how I could decline an extension of a NAP without seeming hostile. Saying that 100 more turns is a big commitment surely won't endear them to me!

The observers is an interesting clause, but I won't argue it.

And I'll have to define "excessive military" in my next response.

As far as the rest, I can live with taking the coastal spot, but I think that I'll argue for the original position because of its hill location, but I won't argue TOO hard about it. Honestly, they're probably making a concession as-is based on my understanding of their earlier position.

The NAP will still be the trickiest part. I'll probably just counter-offer an auto-extension clause (perhaps 20 turns) to our NAP unless one party gives a 10-turn prior notice to cancellation. That way I'm not completely turning down the NAP, but I'll still have some flexibility.

I also hope to learn more about my surroundings and other neighbors in the near future. Right now, Korea is the natural target for a Shaka/Rome combination, but if I can find other targets . . . or allies . . . who knows?

City settlement . . . might makes right? I know if I get my settler out first, this'll cause some diplomatic headaches. I'm a bit worried about breaking my word, even a little, but I think controlling the northwest region (from my capital's perspective) is too valuable long-run to worry about it much. We'll see.

Time to finish my turn.

EDIT: Any lurkers out there familiar with the Espionage costs? I can't find the formula for "Sabotage Production." It'll cost me 90 EP to break whatever Korea is working on now, but I'm not sure how many hammers that equates to. I'm hoping to learn the basics of "Cloak & Dagger."

[shadyforce]

Bookmark this:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?...tcount=200

[Whosit]

OK, a few more thoughts for now.

First, a look at the most recent power chart:



I'm not 100% sure how to interpret that. I don't remember which techs give soldier points and which don't. I'll have to figure out where that information is. I'm guessing that one of my bumps is a tech, and that the other is my second warrior (whom I recently named Thannis).

I'm guessing that Korea still has their one starting Warrior unless I'm badly misreading the charts. So what are they working on? Hopefully not a Settler already, but a Settler at size 1? That would be ridonkulous, right?

I don't know their full BFC, but if they've been working the wheat up to this point, they'll have had a +2 food surpluss for the last 20 turns. They were building a worker. I think that popped 4 turns ago. OK, nevermind, they're probably on their second Warrior now, though I might be able to know for certain if I could interpret the Espionage numbers.

So, city placement.

My ideal:



Note that, by turn 52 my Koumakan's borders will hit ring 3. Assuming that I get a Monument in the production city by turn 42, it will get 2nd ring, effectively sealing off the northeast. Not that I really expect the Koreans to press northeast from their position, but it would make me feel much more comfortable. This position also provides a relatively easy 4 tile distance between the cities, making it possible to reinforce one from the other in 2 turns.

If I take this location, they are sure to gripe, especially considering the above proposed agreement. However, I would tell them (and this is the truth) that I do not plan to expand any further to west. I may have to feign misunderstanding of their proposed spot (Oh! Didn't you say you were settling 1W of the silk?). Doubt they'll buy it unless I can make it very convincing. Maybe not even then.

(I know that the lurkers like to know the thoughts behind the player's motives, but I can't help but feeling paranoid about laying all this out. Still, I know the RB community is an honest bunch.)

Note that I would take the 1N crab location as Broker and plako asked. Pushing my luck by settling on the hill would be asking for trouble. I could always position a couple of Guerrilla Archers there for protection.

Now, if they get THEIR city settled first:



It's not the end of the world, but I feel that I would be in a significantly weaker position. 5 tiles away, plus a gap that wouldn't be filled until the hill city gets size 3 borders. On the plus size, crab city would be less pressured, but I don't really care about that location as much.

Now, as for my reply. This is just a draft, but I'll probably send it a little later today unless I think of anything better.

Dear Broker and plako,

Good to hear back from you. I am very glad to see that you are willing to accept my basic plan, albeit with some changes. Although I would like to say that it was not I who moved the capital, I know that I have inherited that responsibility from my predecessor. Still, I'm glad that you agree that sharing the border region is the best way to avoid either of us feeling crunched. At least, more crunched than we are now.

Therefore, I would be willing to accept this deal with a few further amendments of my own:

*Rather than a blanket extension on the NAP, I propose adding the following clause: The current NAP (set to expire on Turn 60) will automatically extend by 20 turns (to Turn 80) unless either party declares their intention to cancel the deal no less than 10 Turns prior to expiration (before or on Turn 50). The NAP will continue to renew automatically until one party cancels the deal.

*Regarding the two observers for Open Borders: I propose that both observers must be non-combat units, such as Scouts. I know that I would feel uncomfortable with a pair of Axemen wandering around my territory. I am sure that you would feel the same.

*"Excessive Military:" Although any attempt to rigidly define "excessive" would probably get nowhere, here is an attempt at clarification. "Any number of soldiers, standing directly adjacent to the other party's borders, in numbers large enough to cause concern for said party will be considered Excessive. The offended party may ask the offending party to remove the soldiers from the border, and the latter must do so on their next turn."

*I do not contest your suggestions for city placement and I agree in full.

Please let me know if you find these changes agreeable. I look forward to our future cooperation.

On one final note, I would also like to add that I very much appreciate your willingness to compromise on these issues. Diplomacy is all about give-and-take, and I imagine that there are many who do not understand this, so it gladdens me to find fellow rulers who are willing to come to the negotiating table in good faith. Until our next communication.

Best regards,

Whosit

The biggest gamble is my suggestion for the NAP. I imagine that they will question it, though, but I think it is a reasonable request. I don't want accuse them of waiting for their UU, either. Hwatchas, or however you spell them.

I doubt that they will have problems with my second two changes, though. They seem quite fair to me, so hopefully they won't think that the NAP bit is too far out of line.

I should brush up on my psychology, but I hope that the last paragraph softens them a bit. Dunno.

[Whosit]

Bookmark this:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?...tcount=200

Done and done! Thank you!

[Whosit]

As I wait on the last three players to do their turns. Hopefully the novelty will soon wear off so I'm not camping my PC all the time.

Anyway, in the meantime, I've built a WorldBuilder replica of the known world to do some testing for builds and such. I have come up with a daring plan! It is currently Turn 20, but I should be able to settle Production Hill on turn 37. Here's the plan.

On turn 24, the 3rd Warrior will pop and the Worker will finish the Rice same turn (props to LiPing for setting that up. I rarely manage such timing). I will start on a Settler immediately! Yes, a Settler at size 2! It will take 10 turns.

Warrior 3 will head slightly NW to start fogbusting. Rumia, in the West, will start doubling back to fogbust in the hills. Thannis, barring any unforeseen events, should be able to continue traveling east. Warrior 3 should be close enough to run back to town in case of an emergency.

The Worker will mine the Gold and grassland hills, since BW will not be available to chop.

When I am 1 turn away from Bronze Working, I will switch to Animal Husbandry. Even if copper pops up, I don't intend to change the destination of city #2, and revolting at that point will slow the settler by a turn.

Turn 34, Settler Pops, start a Warrior or something for growth. Maybe Barracks? Anyway, when Koumakan grows to 3, it'll work the Gold and research will get a nice boost.

Turn 35, finish BW.

Turn 36, settler reaches destination, and I revolt to Slavery.

Turn 37, found the new city (haven't decided on a name yet) and continue animal husbandry. Research will have to go to 80%, but not a huge slowdown. Meanwhile, my Worker will be traveling to the new site to start improving. I'll build a new Worker in the capital when it hits size 3 (will take 5 turns), then do Barracks + troops a bit. Or whatever.

The worker will have enough time to mine one of the new place's hills before AH finishes, then it'll pasture the cows.

After AH? If Copper shows up nearby, Wheel. If not? A quick dip to Mysticism so I can chop out a monument at the new city. I really want to control those borders, so I think the diversion to Myst is acceptable.

Well, I think that it's a fairly good plan, myself. After Myst/Wheel (I just realized that AH will also show horses, which is valuable), I may go on to Iron Working unless something else is more pressing. However, if there is no Copper OR Horses nearby, I think Archery might be a prudent route, because I expect my Korean neighbors to be upset at my city location, and I don't want to run a gambit with just Warriors.

Edit: Actually, I should check out a size-3 settler, since I could work the gold the whole time . . .

Plan 2 looks much better, actually.

On T24, start a Settler. Worker heads towards gold to mine it.

T28: Switch to Barracks, allows growth in 2 turns.

T30: Capital Size 3, works Gold (big research boost!), and switch back to Settler.

T31: Switch from BW (1 turn left) to AH (7 turns). Worker mines grassland hill. Should have 2 warriors fogbusting settling route by now.

T36: Settler complete, Worker finishes mine. Both head towards new location. Capital will finish Barracks in 3 more turns with Settler overflow. Switch back to BW to finish it.

T37: Revolt to Slavery.

T38: End revolt, settle new site (warrior build). Drop research to 80%, AH still finishes next turn. Worker moves to cattle, ends turn.

So, I delay the founding of my new city by 1 turn, but I get BW and AH about 4 turns earlier. Good deal! The only real flaw is that I waste 1 Worker Turn, but it is an acceptable loss to me.

Then, on T39, either 5-turn Mysticism or 6-turn Wheel. Suppose I go for Mysticism. . .

T40: Koumakan finishes Barracks, Warrior (2), growth (2). Perfect. Will do Worker #2 at Size 4.

T42: Warrior (yay, Combat 1 warrior with a new promotion available!), Worker time (4 turns). Cattle pasture finishes.

T43: Move Worker south to riverside forest. I want to chop this one first to have flatland on City 2's southern part, to help avoid trouble.

T44: Myst < Wheel (most likely). Switch City 2 to Monument. Start chop. In 3 turns, +20 hammers towards monument, with +9 from natural hammers. So, probably a 4 turn monument.

T46: Worker 2, Warrior (2 turns). Um, not sure what to do at this point. Perhaps chop the forest north of the Capital, to go into another Settler after the warrior pops since the Wheel still isn't finished.

Meanwhile, forest chop at #2 finishes, with monument done next turn.

T47: Monument . . . either finish warrior, or do a barracks. Worker starts mining the hills.

T48: Warrior finishes in capital, start Settler (8 turns prior to chop). Warrior goes to wherever my next city will go. Hopefully I'll know where some strategic resources are.

T51: Wheel finishes. Start build road to gold!

~T53: If City 2 did a Barracks < Warrior, warrior finishes. Maybe a scout? I don't want TOO many warriors if I haven't hooked up copper or something yet.

Capital's borders expand.

NOTE: After Settler, Worker #3 for the new city.

Finally, on T57, City 2's borders expand giving me the seal that I wanted. A bit later than hoped (cap expanded T3), but good enough!

It should be size 3, working the cows and 2 hill mines now with a base production of 9 hammers. Not too bad, I think.

Meanwhile, with relations surely tense with Koreans, I'll either be spitting out warriors for lack of a better unit, or maybe Axemen if I lucked out and have copper nearby! I also plan to offer them my cattle or rice as a gift to soothe relations. It's the best I could offer, lacking the ability to trade techs.

Plan 2 it is! Unless I come up with something better.

[novice]

* We settle northern city 1NW from the northern silk

You could claim you read this as "We settle northern city 1NW from the southern silk" but I doubt they'll buy it.

Settling production hill could/should be argued as a breach of treaty, as it makes the agreed silk city impossible to found. This could in turn lead to Korea declaring the NAP as void and declaring war. Not sure if that is something you should fear, though. But it would probably hurt your reputation.

Settling one north of production hill does not violate the letter of your agreement so maybe it's a better alternative. If you want production hill, maybe you should try to negotiate a settling agreement that allows it.

[novice]

Another option if you want production hill is to just declare a settler race as your "border agreement". Seems fair to me.

[Whosit]

You're right, they probably won't buy any excuse of mine, and it could violate the deal. I plan to keep an eye on their power chart, but so long as they have nothing better than warriors themselves, I probably won't have to fear an attack.

If they do become hostile, I'll work on Archery immediately.

I was considering trying to convince them to take a spot more to the south, but I cannot conceive of any way to argue that without tipping them off that it would interfere with a planned city somehow. At least, no legitimate argument.

I'll just hope that a (fake) apology, and the offer of one of my spare resources as soon as we establish a trade road will keep them from going at me immediately. I think that they're too scared of an Aggressive Rome to attack immediately, but I could pay for the assumption.

The biggest hurt will be to my reputation, but I think this is a smaller black mark than if I had broken my NAP earlier and destroyed them outright. It would have been the wiser move, long-term, but . . . .

I appreciate your opinions very much! The main reason I'm dead-set on my spot is to get a total border seal (on Turn 57 if everything goes right). Not that I'd expect them to dispute my claims to the northeast, but I want to be careful.

Edit: Another cross-post.

Not sure about declaring a Settler Race. That might be too aggressive an approach for right now. Worst-case scenario? I might give them the coastal crab spot. It will put them uncomfortably close to my capital, but it shouldn't be too hard to take by force if I have to.

Edit 2: Actually, I was considering another approach. 1 turn before I settled the town, I was thinking of sending them a messaging letting them know what I'm about to do, and acknowledging that it will require them to shift their city. I would say that I just discovered the site and that it is too valuable to pass up (more or less true) and apologize for the inconvenience, offering to make it up to them (offer the resource trade first, something more drastic if they turn it down).

[novice]

I'm sure you'll be able to salvage your reputation in this game, but remember that potential opponents in other MP games read these spoiler threads

To me, negotiating a settling agreement that you do not intend to honour just seems unnecessary. At least stall the negotiations - after all, you do not seem to fear armed conflict, and eradicating Korea seems to be part of your medium to long-term plans.

Btw, this is all very entertaining