[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[novice]

Anyway, I'll spend a couple days thinking it over and let them stew. Ha.

Yeah, let them stew for a couple of days before responding
If you want to further stall negotiations, make some unreasonable demands. Can't think of anything suitably outrageous right now, though.

EDIT: Triple crossposted, so I added quote to clarify what I was responding to.

[Whosit]

I think I know what you're saying. Each ruler has his or her own prerogative and may guide the nation in whatever direction he or she sees fit? I know I'll look back and wish I'd gone and attacked them. Maybe if I had better understood that the NAP was made under duress rather than in good faith . . . but it's just not in my personality to break a deal, even if I wasn't the one who brokered it.

I may not have read enough MP games, but I was not aware that it was considered standard practice for new players to break the deals their predecessors had made. Again, just not in my personality. However, as soon as the deal runs out . . . .

Broker33 is playing in Pitboss 1, and he seems to be playing that game like a builder, but I don't know anything about plako. I'm not sure how much they know about me. I've been fairly active on CFC, but who knows if they've read those games? Hopefully I am a mystery. Anyway, I'm making some assumptions from their messages, but I don't think that it's a huge leap to say that they are scared of Shake of Rome.

I'm going to work on my hardball diplomacy. Perhaps I can think of reasonably outrageous demands, but I don't think it's quite time for that. I still think that I have a military advantage of Korea, but it's small, so I don't want to go too far . . . yet.

First, of course, I will completely reject their limits on military, probably justifying it in two ways: That it's too dangerous a world to only have one or two units per city, and insinuate that I'm insulted that they think that they can dictate the domestic decisions of Rome in such a way.

Try to negotiate down the NAP again, and perhaps refuse to budge. I will certainly make ratification of a NAP extension dependent on them dropping the "no military" clause.

However, what to do if they do give in? Best case scenario, I get a NAP that extends to T96, and they'll get 10 turns warning before it expires. If that's a long time, I'll have to build up an unstoppable military force given that they'll have time to prepare. It'll hurt economically, but I should be able to continue expanding to the east safely if I get "Kattle Keep" (or maybe I can come up with something that's somewhat thematically related to Koumakan? Um . . . ).

I'm also having second thoughts about allowing observers INSIDE my borders. Surprise is key, and even if I keep my troops dispersed, they'll see what I have. I could do the same, but I think that I would have the advantage with surprise.

I suppose I could change my tune and figure out a way to argue against any observers at all, or at least reduce it to a single unit. But I'll save THAT ammunition until the first two issues are resolved. I'm really hoping that they don't want to budge on it.

On the other hand, if they give in to my new demands (only 30 turn extension, 10 turn notice) and drop the "no military" clause, I might assume that they're quite willing to placate me . . . . We'll have to see. Again, if Rome lacks Iron and can only make Aggressive Axemen, I might have to sweeten my tune. Or just make a Hail Mary. Whatever.

I find this game very interesting, but I wish it would go faster so I don't have to think about each move days at a time!!

[LiPing]

Why always, alot of post comes up while I am typing

*I do NOT want a NAP extension that far. I don't think. I'll have to run my simulation a few more times to see how long it will reasonably take to get Iron Working. Without knowing if there is even Iron, or Copper even!, this is really a gamble. If I become too belligerent, but discover I lack strategic resources (I doubt that I'll have 0, but lacking iron makes for a sad Rome) then I'll be in a much weaker position.

Earliest Iron Working I can get is turn 48.
Add 7T for AH, 5T for Wheel, 5T for Myst (roughly), depending on the order.
I agree about the Iron, since we are playing designed map and not random map, surely every Civ must have guaranteed iron... but I've mentioned a lot about where I think the iron must be, although it's a very cheap thought

*Basically, I want the NAP to be able to expire about when I'll have a reasonably large strike force. Minimum 6 Praetorians, maybe with a couple of Archers for backup/captured city garrison. In my most recent sandbox, I got to turn 57 without Iron Working, though I think that was the next tech. After Bronze Working (currently being researched) I want Animal Husbandry (to work cows and reveal horses), Mysticism (to get my border pop!), and the Wheel (for the all-important roads). Wheel should probably come before Mysticism, though. Wheel will come before AH, actually, if Copper is already in my borders somewhere. THEN Iron Working. While I could do Iron Working first, I think it would stunt the growth of my cities, which would be worse.

Yeah, fast Iron does not work well with the (Moriya Shrine, as I was thinking of it, since it's next to a big mountain) place, it actually causes a big problem with that because of all its necessary techs. If it goes further N to put the rice in the first ring, AH might be delayable though... I was trying to avoid the Archery with extreme prejudice, I did not want another 5T tech delay if I could avoid it... and I don't think you'll need garrison archers if you manage to take anything - their army will be pretty decimated if that's the case, and most likely, you'll probably be razing most of it anyway... I think.

So, yeah, even if I get Iron Working as late as say, Turn 75, I don't think it will take 25 turns to build up my forces. I'll have to do some more testing, though, with a best-case scenario and a less-ideal scenario.

Off the top of my head, turn 75 feels too slow. [I think] Construction can be possible not long after that time, and any attack after that would end up being very costly, and I think a non-stabby NAP that long, might as well just be, OK, just Ally with Korea instead and forget about attacking.

Whip discounted, SDM should make 1/5T and MS should make 1/4T or less, it should be fast. (Hakurei Shrine [the original spot, and my original plan], wouldn't have been able to build much, 1/6-7T, I think, but it'd contribute by netting SDM's crab, and wouldn't have needed any delay techs)

*Either way, the 20-turn grace period is too long for me! I'm definitely not going longer than 10 there. I can't think of a good way to spin that, either. Saying that I want to retain "flexibility" is the same as "I plan to attack you." Suggestions, LiPing? . . . That don't involve attack with our Warrior immediately?

They put words into my mouth every time I did not agree 100% with whatever they said... so I give/gave up, I have no suggestion that doesn't involve "Your head would look good at the end of a pole".

Soldier count - Yes, it will be from techs, probably India with their 10k+ from Bronze Working and Mining, nothing to worry about at any rate, the only one who needs to be worried about for some time is 8 tiles west

Rumia - Yes, female, actually almost entire Touhou cast, with a few exceptions, are female...

Shaka of Rome - I think actually, in hindsight, it was a stupid pick. Should have gone Kublai, the Exp idea didn't really pay off at all

[MWIN]

You are free to settle anywhere you want. You didn’t sign anything yet! You only agreed to settlement clause, but whole agreement is still being discussed.
As I see it, agreeing to one point of negotiation does not mean a deal is made. A deal is made after all points are discussed and formally exchanging extract wording of the agreement....

Yeah, I already sent the e-mail.

I am starting to think that it was a move on my part, but I couldn't think of a way to stall without making it obvious that I was stalling. And I'm really not sure that I could successfully stall for the two weeks it would take in real time. But who knows.

So my plan, crude as it may be, is to wait until my Settler is produced, send them a line telling them that I've identified an important location I need to settle, that it WILL slightly interfere with the Silk city, but offer to try and make up for it somehow. All I can really offer is gifting them a health resource at the moment, but I plan to leave the door open for other options. I'd even give up my clam spot if they really pestered me about it.

[LiPing]

Re: Crosspost

NAP - Yeah, I would normally feel very bad about breaking NAP too... just in this case, I unfortunately know they were stringing me along, so... "eh".

I would unconditionally reject any extension, and would not propose one, I think it would be a very bad idea, with no 'stabby'. By T96, you could be seeing Hwacha and Elephants, and even if your whole attack force is not ready, I think it would still be good to send some of them in first to cut their metal/roads etc. (even if it's just 2 guys walking around, it'll be very hard/expensive to kill them, especially if they can walk on good terrain, and if they even have enough troops to think about it.)

Reputation - I'd be wary about this actually, I proved myself wrong badly twice so far, both with Broker and the religion, and Mortius being likely to win (instead, first out on a gambled start died to warrior... I got that one badly wrong, but I can't disagree with his strategy.), although expectation to some extent seems to follow, with the failed gamble discounted, the expected good teams [no offense intended, everyone else...] have good looking starts from score/demo.
Come to think of it, now that you mention it, I bet the opinion of me by the other players of the game is going to be, that I am the greatest noob of all time, since it would look like I wandered around for 2 turns for no good reason, researched Mysticism... and then Sailing or Masonry... yeaaaah. I probably did myself no favors with the deceptive start

[Whosit]

OK, playing around with your plan, LiPing.

Yeah, had 2 Workers and the next city settled on Turn 40. Bronze Working and Animal Husbandry were teched at that point, as well. Did Wheel next, while Workers did a mine at new city (Moriya Shrine does sound nice, but perhaps not the tone I want to set for the empire =) ). Then Myst, and finally Iron Working, which I got on turn 64.

One downside to my Sandbox is that I don't know if we have Copper or Horses nearby, so the cities were just spitting our Warriors which started to eat up maintenance costs. Hopefully we'll have at least one strategic resource nearby, so we can make something better.

Other option, dunno if it'll fly in the actual game, but work a bit on Stonehenge for failure money. But that's only if nothing better than Warriors are available. Maybe make another Worker. I kind of want to save Settler 3 for Iron, if it's not already in our grasp. Settling a 3rd city before Iron Working is going to eat into our tech rate.

But T64 looks like the best bet if I want to get all my infrastructure into place. Which I do. Hopefully Iron Will be nearby. I'll allow, say, 10 turns to connect it, so Iron on T74. Then build/chop some Praets? Or is chopping them inefficient?

So, I think I COULD handle a 30 turn extension, but not with a 20-turn notice.

I'll play around with it a bit more. T64 seems slow to me, doesn't it?

Edit: Actually, the RB team in the Apolyton Demogame got IW on T77, but they had 4 towns by then. I'll see about setting up a 3rd town earlier. If I settle at the original capital site, I could work the coast and lake for additional income.

[novice]

For what it's worth I agree with MWIN.

[novice]

Come to think of it, now that you mention it, I bet the opinion of me by the other players of the game is going to be, that I am the greatest noob of all time, since it would look like I wandered around for 2 turns for no good reason, researched Mysticism... and then Sailing or Masonry... yeaaaah. I probably did myself no favors with the deceptive start

That would be too funny
But I suppose it could be an advantage to be underestimated? Anyway, some of your deceptiveness may become apparent when you meet your opponents?

[LiPing]

Can always make workers, they are always good and a couple can be useful in the attack party (they can road to get the guys there faster), I wouldn't bother putting valuable hammers into Stonehenge with the intent of failing it.
10T from discovery, with the settler properly timed, is very long to connect iron, I think it should take 5T at most, although that city may have to be built for first ring only (no way you can wait for monument to pull it in), and 3 cities, should be at like 4+ workers I think, so unless it's horribly far away, it should be fast to link.

I think depending on where MS<City name to be decided> goes, you can punt Mysticism to after Iron, and decrease it to T59. At minimum it is going to take 15T after Mysticism for that border to grow anyway, and the second ring doesn't add anything 'must have' to it (by the way, if you mouse over that rice, does it say "Fresh Water"?)

Third city, may not necessarily slow tech. HS would have crab and fur, so it'd pull in 6c on its own, and it can also net SDM's crab, adding a 4f0h2c to useful tiles, and make a profit. (By the way, with regards to the other crab city, I favor the idea of letting them spend 100H + 30H to make it operational, you've got the much better crab city to the east anyway, so it should at best, be the 4th or 5th city anyway?)

Praetorians - well... I don't think there's much to chop by that point. MS would be best off just building them manually, and SDM could 2pop-whip some (tiles: (2/1/1) 4/2/0, 5/0/0, 4/0/2, 0/3/7, 1/3/0 are the only good ones, there'd be enough happiness for 7 pop with the fur and the gold, the extra two would grow manually working those as there's still food surplus, and those can be grown and whipped away.

re: Novice - I agree, it would be (is?) funny. I think it is somewhat useful to be underestimated when you are actually playing the game, but say if it comes around to be making teams for another game or something say, before this game finishes, I'd think the reaction of the other people in this game currently, would be like... "What? Take that horrible noob on our team? Uhhh.... pass."
Well, I guess they would catch it eventually (you can see what techs other people have even in no tech trading, right?) so you have a point there.

[Whosit]

OK, I'll cite MWIN as my legal counsel and say that I never signed the dotty line yet!

Doing another test run.

T24 Koumakan: Worker < Settler < Barracks
T39: New city founded. Earlier than last time, for some reason. Only 3 Warriors to our name, and 1 is going to be off scouting to the east.

Bronze Working AND Animal Husbandry are teched before the new city is laid down, a major improvement to my original plan (thanks for point out the flaws, LiPing). Or, rather, LiPing's original plan is better than my own hashed together one. Working on Wheel.

Of course, after Bronze Working, the tech plan could change.

*No Copper visible at all: Animal Husbandry
*Copper visible, outside borders, cannot get with pop: Animal Husbandry
*Copper visible, outside borders, could get with pop: Mysticism, Wheel
*Copper visible, inside borders: Wheel

Basically, Wheel will have preference unless a border pop at new city will be required for a strategic resource, in which case I'd want a monument earlier.

T40: Cap: Barracks < Warrior
T42: Warrior < Warrior
T44: Wheel*; Warrior < Worker < Settler?
T49: Mysticism. Revolt to Slavery?

T65: Iron Working. A turn later than before, but I did settle a 3rd town this time at the original capital site. So, yeah, this seems to be the way to go. If I can stall negotiations, or end up breaking them off completely (only would want to do that if I have a strategic resource earlier), and there is Iron nearby (a lot of ifs!), I can probably get 4-6 Praets relatively quickly, and overrun Korea, or at least choke them long enough to get enough troops to finish them off.

Yeah, I would probably raze anything but their capital. Hopefully they're not reading this, heh . . . . Well, I'm sure they're not, but I can be paranoid if I want to be.

Still, It'll be at least 12 game turns until I know if there is copper, so there's probably not much sense in running more tests until then. I think I have the Settler plan down, though. I don't plan to leave the capital totally undefended, either, as Warrior 3 will fogbust pretty close by, so I can bring him back if needed and Rumia will double back to the hill site in time for the Settler.

The very, very best-case-scenario would be to have those hills full of metal, with them intended to be "Korea's" resources, leaving them with nothing. But I'm going to count on them fielding Axes and Chariots.

Edit (yay for cross-posts all day!):

I gave an estimate of 10t because I'd rather over-estimate than under-estimate.

3rd City: Ha ha, I forgot we had Hunting when I was doing my test. At least that wasn't the real game. Yeah, an extra worker or two to bring it up to speed. Chop out a work boat and camp the fur.

I also plan to chop out the monument at 2nd City to save some time. It should only take a turn or 2, so about 12 turn border pop. I'm willing to accept a slight delay there if Iron is out of Reach because, as I have said, I have become fixated on getting that border seal! I also think it's a stronger strategic position, but we'll see what happens.