Interesting report Ianus! Your colonization frustrations is exactly what I had in mind, requiring some significant tradeoffs rather than colonizing everything in sight ASAP. Lowering it to Hard is certainly an option, although your experiment suggests that Impossible might be possible after all I prefer the challenge level as high as it can be, personally. And I doubt we'll be getting inexperienced players at this point. Specific questions for you:
1) Which race do you think would be most fun to play this with? I've suggested Darloks, Bulrathi, Mrrshans and Alkari.
2) Do you think ECM and/or Battle Scanner should be allowed to increase your colonization levels as well? Missing out on both BC III and FF III is indeed a big blow.
3) Would you rather play this on Large or Medium?
Phew! Final war in 2500 against the Humans and the Sakkra (the two largest empires) with roughly 2x my tech level. I'm holding my own so far but I can't make any advances and my espionage is stopped cold by advanced shields. I'm not really wanting to play any farther like this. I think that if I could have delayed the Final War by even 25 years I could have been more ready for it, but I was just starting to try make some advances against the Sakkra (the ones where all of the tech came from) when the election hit me.
This is a really challenging variant with the smaller empire size among giant AI empires coupled with heightened aggression due to playing the Darloks. Also, by leaving colonies uncolonized within my empire I allowed AI encroachment which made my entire empire vulnerable to attack.
(January 1st, 2014, 04:24)Catwalk Wrote: 1) Which race do you think would be most fun to play this with? I've suggested Darloks, Bulrathi, Mrrshans and Alkari.
I've enjoyed playing as the Darloks, since espionage is one of the only ways to close the tech gap and make up for slowed research. I imagine a similar result could be had with the Bulrathi. As far as space combat bonuses I don't think that they would be very effective against these higher techs.
(January 1st, 2014, 04:24)Catwalk Wrote: 2) Do you think ECM and/or Battle Scanner should be allowed to increase your colonization levels as well? Missing out on both BC III and FF III is indeed a big blow.
I think that including ECM in the math would open up colonization too much. I do like the idea of allowing one additional Colony per tech level by sticking a Scanner on it for an additional +1. Thus: Col1 (BC1), Col2 (BC1+FF1), Col3 (BC1+FF1+Scan), Col4 (BC2+FF1), Col5 (BC2+FF2), Col6 (BC2+FF2+Scan), etc.
(January 1st, 2014, 04:24)Catwalk Wrote: 3) Would you rather play this on Large or Medium?
I think that this really depends on starting position and Rule 2 above. In my game I built a total of 9 colony ships (generating 8 successful colonies) by the time all planets were claimed. I certainly could have claimed more worlds, and faster, but this was on a Large map. So maybe say that on Large allow the Scanner variant above, while on Medium only count BC and FF techs. Obviously the larger map makes for a much more challenging Final War. In my game the only established colony I had lost by the time I stopped playing was Nazin which was glassed by a fleet of several HUNDRED large ships which ate my 65 Pulson bases in two shots. Stack attached.
Revised proposal
Race: Darloks
Map: Large
Difficulty: Impossible
1) Score = Orion date + Final War date
2) The only diplomacy you may do are trade agreements and making/accepting peace offers.
3) You must make a new design each time you build a colony ship according to these rules:
- Name each design with a number saying how many colony ships you have built. The first one you build gets a 1, the next gets a 2 and so on.
- Each colony ship must be equipped with BC level shield level = its number or higher. A battle scanner may also be added for an extra level.
4) Your entire tech tree will be revealed to you before starting, and it will include Improved Eco Restoration
5) You start with two techs from each field:
Deep Space Scanner
IRC III
IIT 9
Duralloy Armour
Mk II deflectors
Personal Deflector Field
Terraforming +10
Barren Colonization
Hydrogen Fuel
Inertial Stabilizer
Gatling Laser
Anti-missile rockets
With the extra techs and rule 4, I feel that Impossible might be doable. Ianus came close to winning without the extra techs, without final war in 2500 he very well might have. My aim with this is to create a variant that I have a 50% chance of beating, and I feel that this will come quite close to that.
(January 1st, 2014, 16:05)WhiteMage Wrote: Ianus,
What version did you play? 1.40m?
I've always played 1.3. I didn't know about 1.40m until I found this forum quite recently, and I haven't had any reason to upgrade. That said, having the eternally Pacifist Sakkra as my neighbors undoubtedly made my game easier.
I like this. It is simple and straightforward. Can we include a bonus for actually winning Final War? Otherwise why continue?
Also, have you played this variant yet? Play through an iteration or two with these rules. It will give you a better idea of what to expect, and especially what to look for when making a map for us all to play. I haven't finished my game (yet) but it will be interesting to see what sorts of scores would be expected. Some things to think about: if the player can capture Orion, they will most likely be in a position to win the Final War, and thus would have a much higher score than someone who gets steamrolled in Final War and never conquers Orion. Having never been involved in an Imperium before I don't know what that means for the results, but if there are only +/- 3 of us playing there will probably be some pretty big disparities in score.
If I were you I would spend some time looking at and playing the map you roll for this game. I still don't know where Orion is on my map, but basically it is so far away that my Final War will be over (one way or the other) before I find or conquer it.
(January 1st, 2014, 16:10)Catwalk Wrote: 2) The only diplomacy you may do are trade agreements and making/accepting peace offers.
I'm not sure how necessary this is. I must admit I did bribe the Sakkra into my war against the Humans in my game not long before Final War started in an effort to get the two largest races in the game to keep each other in check. I understand the sentiment against spectator wars, and I don't usually play that way myself, but given how tough this will play for us anyway, especially as the hated Darloks, I would be tempted to say we can do whatever diplomacy we can manage. Maybe just the usual prohibition against spectator conflicts?
(January 1st, 2014, 16:10)Catwalk Wrote: 3) You must make a new design each time you build a colony ship according to these rules:
- Name each design with a number saying how many colony ships you have built. The first one you build gets a 1, the next gets a 2 and so on.
- Each colony ship must be equipped with BC level shield level = its number or higher. A battle scanner may also be added for an extra level.
This seems like the main variant for this game. I think that there is room for discussion about making this the only game rule, and saving the Orion/Final War rules for a separate game. I certainly built my play around this mechanic and didn't even think about Final War or Orion until the Final War happened. Maybe more skilled players could strategize toward Final War better than I did, but I felt that my War happened sooner than I would have liked it to (stupid espionage). I think that there is room for something like requiring an Extermination victory or conquering Orion, but I worry that Final War might be too much on top of the slow start this variant causes.
(January 1st, 2014, 16:10)Catwalk Wrote: 4) Your entire tech tree will be revealed to you before starting, and it will include Improved Eco Restoration
I don't think that this is necessary. Why see the entire tree? We start at a higher tech level anyway (per 5) but I don't see the point of knowing the entire tree ahead of time. I think that knowing that certain key techs would be nice (I would have KILLED for Cloning in my game) but knowing the entire tree, particularly when we will most likely be stealing most of our techs from our opponents instead, seems pointless.
(January 1st, 2014, 16:10)Catwalk Wrote: 5) You start with two techs from each field:
Deep Space Scanner
IRC III
IIT 9
Duralloy Armour
Mk II deflectors
Personal Deflector Field
Terraforming +10
Barren Colonization
Hydrogen Fuel
Inertial Stabilizer
Gatling Laser
Anti-missile rockets
While this will help in the early game, I think that this would have less value than you might think. When I played (how many times can I say that in one post?) I didn't meet any other races until I was at least slightly beyond these techs, and given the way research costs increase I'm not sure just how much all of these would help our war effort. Certainly make us work for the Class 2 shields, since that is the whole point of the variant.
(January 1st, 2014, 16:10)Catwalk Wrote: With the extra techs and rule 4, I feel that Impossible might be doable. Ianus came close to winning without the extra techs, without final war in 2500 he very well might have. My aim with this is to create a variant that I have a 50% chance of beating, and I feel that this will come quite close to that.
And yeah, which version should we play it with?
Again, I'm not familiar with competitive Imperium games but will a 50% victory rate make for a fun competition? Maybe Ref can add to this?
As for version, I play 1.3 and am a bit hesitant to upgrade. I suppose I could try it, but I'd like to be able to play the way I am familiar with (although if I continue my Final War I may come across the negative fleet bug.
*EDIT* So far this Final War has been the most boring event of the game. We are all at the top of the tech tree so no one can really touch anyone else. And to make matters worse the Sakkra coalition just discovered Subspace Interdictor rendering my Teleporters useless.
I think that this might be the greatest mark against this for an Imperium game. I can't really do anything, and the AI can't do anything to me, or at least they aren't really trying. This is basically a stalemate and I don't think that stalemates make for gripping game reports. I'm about to get Thorium Cells and go hunting Orion, but I won't be able to hold it once I capture it and after I do that there is absolutely no point to continuing to play.
I found the Negative Fleet Bug, but I don't know what the computer thinks it is doing with it. In scanning the fleet to get the attached shot the AI began retreating those stacks from my single large armed with Heavy Blast Cannons. I still don't know why.
And a final update for everyone hanging breathlessly on my game:
I defeat the Guardian in 2692. I could have done it a fair bit sooner if I'd been planning ahead, but I sat there researching and spying for ages before it occured to me that Thorium Cells would let me get to where Orion was.
So according to the proposed scoring: Orion Data 2692 (392 turns) + Final War date 2500 (200 turns) = 592 points
As I said above there isn't any reason to play on from here. I would basically have to burn down 3/4 of a large map to have any chance at victory. No thanks!
Unless it is the first one, elections are held in (year mod 25) = 24 years only. That is, 2474, 2499, 2524, etc. So your final war is likely 2499. (I have never seen fist election that late for 5 opponent impossible.) You also defeated Guardian in the year when you pushed "End Turn".
Unless it is the first one, elections are held in (year mod 25) = 24 years only. That is, 2474, 2499, 2524, etc. So your final war is likely 2499. (I have never seen fist election that late for 5 opponent impossible.) You also defeated Guardian in the year when you pushed "End Turn".
Yes that is all technically true. I have always had a hard time thinking of the things that happen AFTER I push "Next Turn" as happening in that same year. I understand that that is how the game is arranged, but I have never liked it. Fine, subtract 2 from my score. And I don't think that was the first election. I think the first High Council met in 2448 or so. It was very late, and as far as I can tell it happened that way because I had so many empty planets within my empire (due to the colonization restrictions discussed previously). The High council began meeting once my neighbors finally got around to poaching systems within my sphere of influence.
Excellent observations Ianus, thanks. I'm a little surprised that Final War is turning into a stale mate, though. Do you lack the firepower to harm their bases? At this point the game usually becomes all about glassing enemy planets with lightning speed bombers, whether you have teleporters or not. Stalemate is certainly not the intention with this, no. I may be biased from playing 1.40m, where Final War plays out quite differently. If 1.3 is the preference, then ignoring Final War is a good idea. Maybe keep just the Orion objective? Also, how about just revealing all battle computers and shields in the tech tree?
I prefer the challenge level as high as it can be, personally. And I doubt we'll be getting inexperienced players at this point. Specific questions for you: