[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[Whosit]

, you might get a more accurate answer, if you list all possible builds...

Well, I suppose I was saying, by process of elimination, they are probably working on a Barracks. Unless they got Pottery already, but I don't think so. So, yes, probably a Barracks. Which is probably their "real" response to my "negotiations." It will take 7 turns to finish, 6 if they grow and work another hammer tiles. Then it can spit out 3-turn Warriors unless they teched something better (which I will assume they are working on).

I very much doubt they are building a Monument (which they could build since they have Mysticism), but if they are, they are going to deserve what they're gonna get. I'm reasonably certain that is all they are capable of building at this point. They say that they do not have Hunting, which I could probably verify if I felt like doing all that math, but that would only open up a scout, which I'm sure they aren't building.

So, yeah, my money is on a Barracks.

[novice]

So you're agreeing to the settlement plan then?

[Whosit]

So you're agreeing to the settlement plan then?

I guess so. I'm still thinking about it. I'm not sure if I'll be seen as a bigger jackass by making more demands now, or pulling a Vader later and saying "I am altering the deal. Pray that I do not alter it further." Which would be really cool, actually. *hhoooooh hsssssh*

Perhaps the better thing to do now would be to say "I want to settle somewhere that may force a change in the settlement plan, but I'll give up my location" or something, which would be more honest, but I'm very, very scared that they will try to beat me to the spot, which could be worse than being a bit dishonest.

Did some very quick calculations, and I think that if they switched to a Settler right now, they may be 1-2 turns behind me insofar as blocking my intended site. I have the advantage that I'm already on my way to the Settler, and I don't have to walk as far (well, fewer forests to slow me down). I could try stalling my reply for another turn or two, but that would probably just put them in a worse mood.

As a last resort, I could whip my Settler out if I find evidence that they are working on one themselves and save myself a few turns. I'll play with that in my sandbox later.

*Sigh* . . . tricky decisions.

So, yeah. You all have been saying that I shouldn't agree to a deal that I intend to violate, so I suppose it would be more fair to renegotiate, or attempt to renegotiate, the deal ahead of time to avoid becoming a real nasty player. So my counter offer probably would include giving up my spot, well, I'd probably first say that I would try to compensate by not settling my selected spot and see where it goes from there, and be willing to cede it to them if they ask for it. I could always take it, later . . . .

So, I guess that's what I'm thinking of, for now.

[MWIN]

or not reply at all. At least till you finish Bronze working...

Regarding their build, you haven't included all possible units/buildings in your reasoning...

[Whosit]

or not reply at all. At least till you finish Bronze working...

Regarding their build, you haven't included all possible units/buildings in your reasoning...

No? I'm sure I'll find out soon. Perhaps they have teched Archery, or Animal Husbandry. I'm just not sure. Oh, perhaps they teched Fishing and are building a Work Boat? *shrugs* I suppose their capital must be coastal, but if they have a coastal resource, it looks a lot nicer than my original location. Work Boats cost 30 hammers.

It's possible they got Bronze Working already, but I don't find that terribly likely. I know that they had to tech Agriculture. Eh. I guess I'll find out when whatever they got is built! Meanwhile, you lurkers can just laugh at my poor sleuthing abilities since you all know what they are doing!

Anyway, if the turns go really fast, I'd be tempted to hold my reply that long, but we'll see.

[zakalwe]

Assuming they can deduce or guess when you get bronze working, what do you think their reaction will be if you try to reneg the settlement plan on the turn after you discover it?

Maybe it would be better to stall by proposing that you defer any settlement plans until both of you have learned bronze working and animal husbandry, so nobody gets cheated out of strategic resources. They'll probably see right through that, but it's not like you have an obligation to sign any sort of deal with them, if you don't feel it's to your advantage.

[Kyan]

I think though, that this is a game more than any big social gathering - and to some extent, everyone's expected to make war on other people at some point. Similarly, there's plenty of tabletop games like Diplomacy and Risk where attacking other people (and backstabbing them) is expected as part of playing the game, you play those with friends or associates, people don't walk away from it bearing grudges.

In Pitboss1, Athlete broke an NAP, if i personally was playing in this game now i wouldn't treat him different to any other player because of it.

In that scenario, he had his reasons as he couldn't sit by as a long term ally was destroyed. In your case, you have your reasons:

you've taken over a game where you are playing as Shaka of Rome and you have an enemy literally on your doorstep. If the roles were reversed and Broker/plako had taken over the rome game- do you think they would have decided to be peaceful?

Don't forget, if they go out they can then read this thread and see your logic. I think you worry about reputations too much. Best way to improve your reputation is to win the game in my opinion.

[Whosit]

Wow, so many viewpoints on how to approach this little diplomatic game! I do like your line of thinking, though, Kyan.

After some amount of thought, I think I'll go ahead and be upfront. If they don't go for it . . . I can stall until I settle, heh, but until I know where the copper lies, it's hard to say what the best place is. I like my current spot for City 2 because I believe that it has a strategic advantage, but if I have to settle 1N of that place, it shouldn't be a HUGE deal.

So, my rough draft (I plan to revise it and send it out tonight or tomorrow):

Dear Broker33 and plako,

I have received your latest offer and I thank you for your willingness to consider Rome's position. The agreement is looking very good. However, I would like to ask for one more change, hopefully it will not be a major problem.

Having recently scouted the lands to my northwest in more detail, I have found a potential city location that I believe is critical for Rome's territorial integrity. I would like to note that this city location is NOT in the disputed area; it is north of the river. The snaggle here is that settling this location would make it impossible to settle at your location of 1NW of the Silk.

Now, I realize that this would put you in an inconvenient situation, to say the least, so I hope that I can make some additional concessions that may even things out. At the moment, Rome is small and has little to offer, but here are my thoughts:

*Rome will gift you a resource as soon as we have trade routes.

*Rome will agree to NOT settle the designated location north of the Crabs.

Again, I apologizing for forcing us to revise the treaty once again, so if you can think of additional items for Rome to offer, please let me know. I hope that you do not feel that Rome is cheating you. Rather than settling this city without your knowledge, I bring this issue up in advance in order to deal with Korea in good faith. Hopefully we can come to a satisfactory agreement.

Best regards,

Whosit, Dictator of Rome

Again, I'll revise the exact wording, but this is more or less the content of the letter. I don't think I'll come to a better solution by over-thinking this, and I don't want to be a huge jerk by settling secretly (yes, I plan to go to war eventually. That doesn't mean I have to be disagreeable). The biggest risk, of course, is that they try to get a Settler out ASAP and beat me to it, but I'm reasonably certain that I can get to my spot first. If they want to haggle, I can always resort to saying "I'm sorry. Let me be clear. I've decided where I'm going, so I'm letting you get something in return."

Again, regarding a possible Settler race: As far as I know, Korea does NOT have Bronze Working. I'll have it soon, and I have plans to chop the Settler out. I can also revolt to Slavery and whip the Settler if my C&D reveals they are working on one themselves (well, I wouldn't be able to tell a Settler from a Worker, but whatever). So my Risk vs. Reward here?

Probably not worth it in game terms. But in the end, I don't want to sign a deal I intend to shortly violate and I guess that's what it comes down to. Also, I need to rationalize my poor choice here. I'm no longer worried about showing my hand insofar as plans to fight are concerned; I know they expect that. Well, guess we'll just see how this turns out.

[LiPing]

If they tech Archery, they would +power. If they tech Bronze Working, they would also greatly +power. Their power has been almost flatline

I 100% guarantee they have Fishing and Agriculture, they had tech score increases on T9 and T14, while making 11B/T, Agriculture is proven, and Fishing is the only other tech which could have been researched in that timeframe.(Hunting would add power, so that's a no-go)
Therefore, I say that it must be a boat they are building, and that they have a seafood, otherwise it would be a complete atrocity to research fishing at all.

Consequently...
I am 100% sure they cannot beat you to the spot. You're already +3 turns on them from the initial start, due to the 12T(+2 turns walking) worker vs the 17T worker, and now because they're required to build a boat, that's a further 30H and ~16F disadvantage. We've shown that trying to rush out a settler fast (before two workers) is inferior, with our own example, and Seoul will actually have slightly worse output than SDM at size 2-3 (and get its improvements up slower). So I say, they cannot stop you, other than going warrior x lots, and preparing to burn it down.

Not settling the crab is no loss, so that seems good. Gifting them a resource on the other hand... I don't see anything you could gift that's actually available to give, and heck, you'd have to violate that anyway, assuming you intend to attack them.

Also, if I remember correctly, it's impractical to whip that settler, if it's going by my plan, it will lose 1 turn trying to whip it (not size 4 either, so only +30H can be added) due to the revolt and the timing of the chops (the workers are moving to different forests, and the chops come in and they get it to a point where there is ~1 or 2T left, so no gain)

[Whosit]

=) See? This is why I need you around, Li. How will I ever manage to run an efficient empire without someone to check my crazy math and absurd assumptions? Well, I'd better learn, since you'll be off somewhere real soon.

As far as gifting the resource is concerned, I'm fairly confident that T66 will arrive before I have trade routes with Korea. It is the definition of an empty promise. I'm also reassured since you believe they can't beat me to the site, so if they don't go for my proposal, I can safely say, "well, nice doing business with you!"