December 24th, 2013, 01:42
Posts: 93
Threads: 1
Joined: Sep 2013
75 AD (T118). Big turn for our team - finally some GSpy fun 
There is also some good news and not so good news. The good news is that rushed stealing, as planned, costed us only 1 spy, but gave us Organized Religion this turn, so we revolted to both OR and Buro, which costed us only 1 turn anarchy. We have also advance to the 3rd place - will probably not stay there long, though - but always nice:
As you can see from the same screenshot above, suttree is only one turn away from free Great Artist from Music. It was pretty obvious he would go for it - he has MoM after all, so he would get extra long Golden Age - although I was not paying that much attention and though he is 2-3 turns away. His GNP is scary - around 350 - almost 100 more than ours. I am pretty sure he must be building wealth, although we can not afford to look into his cities now.
Suttree getting Music next turn means that we will be #1 in beakers researched (or precisely - researched or stolen  ) for only this turn  . Oh, well, let us enjoy it while it lasts, then.
Here are total "beakers researched" (actual values, not approximations Sulla and some others are using):
1. Us 6468
2. Suttree 5759
3. Orgy 5158 (still going strong in the research dept)
4. Eggheads 3949 (likely researching Feudalism now)
5. Yuufo 3508 (and CoL in 2 turns). He is doing much better now with currency and will soon whip courthouses all over the place for even better cost control
Btw, Care Bears seem not to update their thread too much - if there is any lurkers' interest, I could actually now post screenshots of their cities 
January 15th, 2014, 11:23
(This post was last modified: January 15th, 2014, 11:25 by B4ndit.)
Posts: 168
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Joined: Jan 2014
The king is dead, long live the king! Or almost... after a period of anarchy Regency Council (Catwalk and me) has taken over the leadership over our humble kingdom.
We are currently in the process of reinstating government control over our cities/military units and during recreating diplomatic contacts with our neighbors. We have already recognized grave danger on our western border (India) and that is right now our main concern. Especially since our military forces are almost non existent and India seems to have one of the most powerful army in the known world. We have some thoughts about how to handle this situation. My opinion:
I would keep researching machinery for macemans, because we must have them to defend ourselves. Without machinery we don't stand a chance against Yuufo's tons for axes.
Secondly we should build walls in border cities and I would also start constructing barracks wherever it is reasonable (right now we don't have even a single barrack) and than start producing macemans ASAP. We also should contact our National Forest Guard to make sure, that there isn't a single forest alongside our western border...
Another problem is our diplomacy. We haven't yet been contacted by Yuufo and we had only very brief contact with DMOC. As far as we know (thanks to other players that have already contacted with us), we have NAP with India until t130 and Yuufo wasn't interested in prolonging it... Nevertheless ideally I would prefer defensive pact with DMOC over long term NAP with Yuufo. I don't like neither of those possibilities: - Yuufo declaring war on DMOC when we can not come to assists DMOC. For example with signed NAP with Yuufo until t160, I dont want to end up in t160 with super strong Yuufo who conquered DMOC.
- Same holds true the other way around. In t160 I dont want to have super strong DMOC (after conquering Yuufo) on our western border. If Yuufo will be going down, we should take part in this partition.
Of course the worst option would be NAP between DMOC and Yuufo and Yuufo declaring war on us...
On the other hand some thoughts from Catwalk's:
Catwalk Wrote:Briefly, I'm not super impressed with Yuufo's military. He has next to no military that we can see, so most of it must be away elsewhere. I say we do a modest military buildup, but I highly doubt we'll need to go all in. Our military is non-existent, but his really isn't that great either. It just looks big in comparison with our miniature army of toy soldiers. If we want to win, I think we'll need to run some risks and start fixing our somewhat broken economy immediately.
Catwalk is also not that much into pushing towards Machinery for macemans. Any input/advice would be useful
January 15th, 2014, 11:38
Posts: 6,457
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Joined: Aug 2004
He may have the largest military, but it's still pretty small. I suggest we try to push him into accepting a NAP, pointing out that we will have no other option but to mobilize heavily on his border. We have a ton of EP on him (from a great spy) that will be very unpleasant for him during a war, not to mention we have full vision on all his cities while he mobilizes against us. I don't mind paying him a token amount for peace, it would greatly be in our best interests and I think we have a credible threat of making him suffer greatly.
January 15th, 2014, 16:50
(This post was last modified: January 15th, 2014, 17:39 by Catwalk.)
Posts: 6,457
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Draft for message to send to Yuufo:
Quote:Well met Yuufo.
As you may know, the empire to your east has been taken over by new rulers following the unexplained disappearance of the former emperor. We are taking some time to settle into our new roles, and our first order of business is relations with your empire.
As is obvious, our military is weak and yours is a good deal stronger. We have a NAP which expires in 10 turns, and I've been informed that you declined extending it. Needless to say, we will not let you feast on our lands. If we cannot obtain an extended NAP agreement with you, we will commit to building a heavily militarized border simply to protect ourselves. We will also use our spies and EP to hinder you in any way we can to ensure our continued survival.
We much prefer peace, though. Whatever beef Asterix may have had with you is not our beef, and we're really more into chicken and fish. While our economy is decent, it is also mismanaged and that is what we wish to devote our efforts to. We feel that the little spying adventure our predecessors embarked on clouded their eyes to the obvious necessary of a strong economy before anything else.
As we have full vision on your empire, we observe that you have a need for this as well. Many cities are working unimproved tiles, and you have luxuries that you have not yet connected. Given that neither of us is winning this game the way things look now, I would consider it folly for us to engage in a conflict. I do not mean to threaten you, but it is a conflict that you cannot win. Full visibility on your empire means that we can observe every movement and all preparation you make, and we can carry out a very large number of sabotage operations on you. We will even have macemen available in 4 turns.
I would say more, but I need to hear where your empire stands on this matter. If you have already made up your mind to go to war, we will act accordingly. If you wish peaceful relations, so do we. If you choose peace, we have many suggestions for how we can cooperate to our mutual benefit and dig ourselves out of this economic hole.
With best wishes and our most sincerest respect,
Catwalk and B4ndit
EDIT: I went ahead and sent it, to make sure we don't waste too much time while we're in the thinking box. Let's plan on doing a lot of diplo tomorrow, and then figure out our economic and military plans.
January 15th, 2014, 17:08
(This post was last modified: January 16th, 2014, 14:22 by Catwalk.)
Posts: 6,457
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Joined: Aug 2004
This is now officially the deals thread, where we will keep track of what we've promised to who.
1. Team Eagles & Condors: suttree / Oxyphenbutazone - Pacal II of Native America - ecpb14 [at] gmail.com
2. Team Dinosaurs: Whiteye / Raptorous - Darius of England - dinosaurs.team [at] gmail.com
3. Team Cat Burglars: Catwalk playing temporarily / B4ndit contemplating taking over - Willem of Ottoman Maga.CIV@gmail.com
4. Team Aivoturso - Mansa Musa of Zulu bowaivo@gmail.com
5. Team Orgynized: Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (WilliamLP & Dp101 dedlurking) - Huayna Capac of Netherlands - orgynized [at] gmail.com
6. Team Blame Caledorn: YossarianLives / Caledorn (Scooter, Old Harry & Cheater Hater dedlurking) - Isabella of Inca - yossadorn [at] gmail.com
7. Team Care Bears: Yuufo / Bisons - Victoria of India - carebearspb14 [at] gmail.com
8. Team EggHeads: Dick76 / DMOC (TeddyKGB dedlurking) - Suryavarman II of Byzantium - dick76dmoc [at] gmail.com
9. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony: Classical_Hero / Halvgud - Napoleon of Sumeria - team.mlmcp [at] gmail.com
10. Team Gladiator's Glory: Barteq / Geo / Harami - Ragnar of Rome - geobqciv@gmail.com
January 15th, 2014, 17:10
Posts: 6,457
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Joined: Aug 2004
I'm thinking we might have a bit of goodwill right now for taking over an empty civ, and we should make sure to convert that goodwill into NAP agreements for our own safety. If we manage to land enough NAP agreements, we can basically farm our way to the top. These players seem very NAP happy, only thorn is Yuufo. And it seems that we provoked him to begin with.
January 15th, 2014, 18:31
Posts: 168
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Joined: Jan 2014
Here is my proposal for worker tasks:
http://i.imgur.com/du1xGUZ.jpg
Arrows - new roads
Crosses - forests to chop down
Red - high priority
Orange - medium
Yellow - low
We must chop down as soon as possible those two forests bordering our cities and lay roads around the lake and it must be done before t130! Right now attacking units will get more defense bonuses hiding in those forests than our units in the cities :| Secondly we should chop all remaining forests and think about more roads.
Also lets stop building those missionaries! We need barracks/walls/military units!
About diplo with Yuufa. I really think we should coordinate this with DMOC.
January 16th, 2014, 06:31
(This post was last modified: January 16th, 2014, 06:33 by Catwalk.)
Posts: 6,457
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Joined: Aug 2004
I got a very promising response from Yuufo. He says he's interested in a NAP extension, and wishes to discuss a cooperative espionage agreement where he lets us use our EP to steal his techs in exchange for payment. I think we have good chances of obtaining generous NAP agreements which let us run a farmer's gambit for a prolonged period of time. That would be the case scenario here, as we have plenty growth potential without major warfare. We also have weak opponents to the south if we wish to seek territorial expansion.
January 16th, 2014, 12:38
Posts: 93
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Joined: Sep 2013
(January 15th, 2014, 17:08)Catwalk Wrote: This is now officially the deals thread, where we will keep track of what we've promised to who.
DMOC
We get stone for spices until t123 inclusive
They have proposed a NAP previously, was ignored by Asterix (very interested in one)
suttree
NAP until t220 (that's another 100 turns)
RESOURCE AGREEMENT
*OxySut connects stone as soon as possible.
*Oxysut will gift 10 turns of stone beginning the turn stone is connected [~t126?].
*Oxysut will gift 10 turns of stone at M&L's request, so long as M&L gives 10 turns notice
TRADE-AGREEMENT
*Silk for Incense, starting t114 for the duration of our NAP
Arkipeller
NAP to t183
We get silver for 10 turns, starting on t121
No espionage cap, but both parties has agreed not to share what the other is currently researching, until NAP is over or this part is cancelled
Wants to buy a spy (I'm inclined to agree)
Wants to trade maps (I'm inclined to agree)
YossarianLives
Open Borders and a NAP to T125
"Beware! Asterix felt that an attack from India was impending, and would occur within the next ten turns. Being on the other side of the world, there is not much we can do to help, but let us know if you think of anything."
Dinosaurs
There is also NAP with Dinosaurs until T150 that I planned to extend until T200, since we have common interest or more precisely, no interest in fighting each other. Either we will all fight India (Dinosaurs NAP with them expires T135 and Rome was also interested in being part of it, although communication with Rome is very slow. Or we would fight India and they would fight Rome, also no reason for either of us to rish 2-front war). We have also additional agreement with Dinosaurs that they would not settle or capture barbarian or Classical Hero's cities beyond NS line going more or less through our capitol (would have to log into the game to tell exactly to tell.) I was planning to formalize this agreement plus long-term NAP extension with Dinosaurs - in the best case scenario, when Yuufo will be fighting with someone else and continue to be engaged in cold war in his Southwest, we would go after Classical Hero. He is very backward, has about 4 -5 cities, and a couple of Chariots and Vultures to defend them. And we have no NAP with him whatsover
We have also a couple additional agreements with Dinosaurs - would be great to formalize it all . We decided not to settle Silver city in the Ice Belt (you will see which, there is road leading to it). Instead, their offer this land division agreement, they even offered to protect our settler both from barbs and classical hero during our attempt to settle somewhere in Classical hero's sphere of influence. I would of course have a couple maces (or Xbows) of our own, but there is 60-70% built settler that may not be visible in the queue in the small city near the Incense and Sheep (not Black Eyes). Ah, and once we have a free missionary, we should gift it to Dinos - we would use it in a city near us, may be useful if we would like to borrow the Construction from him (he does not know this last part - he refused to tell us where his capitol is, but now we can easily know)
Aivoturso
We extended NAP with him to something like T180. Very nice and trustworthy guy, I cultivated a relationship with him and extended lab since in the Best Scenario Land, after we will conquer Classical Hero, he would be our neighbor.
January 16th, 2014, 12:41
(This post was last modified: January 16th, 2014, 12:49 by Catwalk.)
Posts: 6,457
Threads: 134
Joined: Aug 2004
Yuufo Wrote:Hi and welcome on board!
It is true that we have a superior army but it is not geared towards your civilization. Having Rome as southwestern neighbour we must be ready to defend ourselves, should they attack.
I am ready to start NAP extension discussions. The previous player used his great spy on us to steal Metallurgy but there are many EP left. If we were uncooperative, we could simply research behind you so that you have no tech to steal. But I think it would be better for both of us to agree on a cooperative spionage economy. Do you know this concept?
Best regards
Yuufo / Care Bears
Catwalk Wrote:That sounds perfect to us, and we would indeed like to enter a cooperative agreement since we have a ton of EP that could otherwise only be used for malice. I'm at work, will send more later today. Cheers to the birth of fruitful relations between our fine empires! Well, hopefully ours will be fine soon anyway
Catwalk and B4ndit,
Cat Burglars Extraordinaire
IMO that's better than what we could have hoped for. He's the only threat to us for the foreseeable future, and he doesn't have secure borders himself. We need to discuss what kind of espionage agreement to enter with him, this is potentially highly profitable. It looks to me like we have enough EP to steal techs from him for a long time, so we're limited only by what he researches. He'll no doubt want cash in return. How should we negotiate prices? I think we should offer him a gold price on a tech by tech basis, mostly based on beaker cost but also on how much we value it.
Assuming a general research bonus of 30% (20% prereq bonus and some libraries), paying 77 gold for a 100 beaker tech means we break even. In other words, with that 77 gold we could research 100 beakers. Conversely, paying him 77 gold for it effectively doubles his research rate. His cost of letting us steal techs is 0, and our cost of stealing techs is around 180 EP. I'm not sure how to correctly assess the value of EP, and in this case it's a sunk cost anyway. If we set the value of 1 EP to 1/3 gold, it costs us 60 gold to steal a tech. Monarchy is 480 beakers, which is equivalent to 369 gold if we were to research it ourselves. Stealing it lowers the value of it by another 300, meaning that 300 gold is our breakeven price on it (we're indifferent about whether we research it ourselves or pay him for letting us steal it). Conversely, any money he makes is a net positive for him. I'd say we should offer somewhere between 20% and 40% of our breakeven price, depending on how much use the tech is to us. I'd be happy to pay 120 gold for Monarchy, and I think that's a good deal for him too. This would also help secure peace, which, although it is a mutual benefit, is probably more of a benefit to us.
EDIT: Stealing costs only 86 EP, so the EP cost really is quite negligible. Maybe we should agree to ignore the EP cost as a show of good faith.
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