WW 31 Game Thread PARANOIA

[Catwalk]

He should die, but only if we don't have a better scum suspect to pursue. He may target either communist or town, since he doesn't know who's who. And in the event that he does hang as a serial killer, we get no new information that we can use to seek out communists.

And I disagree strongly that he should die just for being suspected of being a serial killer. We have good evidence he's not a communist (lynching Azza), so we either suffer a loss or get nowhere really by hanging him. And given that he's not a communist (if you agree with this conclusion), I consider it a good thing to have him in charge of the scrubbot for now.

[Qgqqqqq]

Oh wow oh wow oh wow!
What om earth just happened with this game???

Please, no-one reveal further. I will make a post shortly about what I believe we should do, but suffice to say I think we need to control what is happening with the reveals.

[Serdoa]

Serdoa, with multiple scum factions I don't see any reason why you can't be scum. If you're in a two-man faction with Rowain it makes perfect sense to help each other as closely as you have.

And if there is a scum faction with more than one person in it, which I personally believe, there is no reason to clear neither your nor Rowain. At any rate, there is definitely no reason to give Rowain a free pass. Him disbanding your wagon is not necessarily because you're his scumbuddy.[/quote]

That is not what you claimed before novice. Lets go through it step-by-step:

I started with stating:

Also if you don't believe I am a wolf, there is no reason to believe that Rowain is one, as it would make no sense for him in that case to stop the lynch on me. Heck, even if you believe I am a wolf, do you really think another wolf would be so obvious in saving me? And if so, would I then write this and not something else instead? Like that we have a talking group since N1 as he is a commuter-seer that can scan people and if innocent talk with them for a day privately but if scum he'll instead lose a clone? That's a cool role for my next game btw, don't steal it!

You replied with:

Serdoa, with multiple scum factions I don't see any reason why you can't be scum. If you're in a two-man faction with Rowain it makes perfect sense to help each other as closely as you have.

Now, lets think a moment about this. A two-man faction with Rowain - which indeed is the only situation in which it MIGHT make sense to do what he did - does imply that there are more multi-player-scum-factions because Azza. Either he would be part of your imagined scum-faction of Rowain and me (making our play even less likely then it is already for wolf-buddies) or he has to be part of another multi-player-scum-faction, as indicated via his role-text.

We continued with my reply:

I had actually written a part about this but decided to delete it as Rowain had already pointed out why multiple scum factions are highly unlikely. I'm actually not sure if I should write much more, but hey:

So you believe Rowain and I are both wolves? In that case - and when we are so close - why did he question me at the start of D2? Why did he not actually on D1 tell me that I should switch to Azza? I take it you don't want to come up with the theory that Azza would also be part of the same scum-faction as you seem to believe Rowain and I are part of? If not, why did I put myself into the fire by pushing Q up?

Honestly, look at how the days played out till now and if you tell me afterwards still that Rowain and I are wolves together then the only one that should be voted for is you. Even if that would be my first WW-game I couldn't play a two-faction wolf team as badly as you would have to assume given what happened.

And your answer to this post:

I don't know Serdoa. Frankly I don't care about theorycrafting around this. My point is simply that in a role madness game like this where multiple scum factions have been confirmed you don't let an intervention like Rowain's slide

I pointed that out earlier, but I'm happy to state it again:

1. You lied, claiming that multiple scum-factions are confirmed when they are not in the slightest.
2. You waved my points away with "theorycrafting", but they are not.

The whole thing boils down to getting an explanation from Rowain NOW, when we have ample time to verify it, rather than at LyLo. Rowain made an extraordinary claim and that requires extraordinary evidence. What is the big deal, if Rowain is town then scum will assume he's town and target him anyway. They don't care what his exact role is. Town will only benefit from Rowain having to claim. Everybody has a role, everybody is a target, for crying out loud.

If the above is true novice, why don't we all claim right now? Why are people asked not to claim or scolded for doing so? Why haven't you told us your role in detail when it makes no difference at all? Why haven't you asked for a mass-claim first thing on D1?

What is the difference between Gazglum and me in your reasoning?

Well I think people tend to stick close to the truth when fake claiming. So I would think that Gazglum is legit or a SK, and you're legit or scum.

Um, question: Why would we not kill the SK first in that case? The SK does get us rid of a kill for certain, while getting rid of the scum does not necessarily provide that (if it was the factional kill someone else will do it).

OK let me explain my reasoning for the existence of a SK or second scum faction.
If Gazglum lies, there is a SK (he is it). Otherwise, town has 1 compulsive vig.
If Lewwyn lies, there is a SK (he is it). Otherwise, town has 1 vig/doctor.
If Bob lies, he is scum or a SK. Otherwise, town has a limited shot vig and there are two scum factions who killed Q and MJW respectively. (I'm assuming the town doesn't have 4 vigs.)
If Bob is scum with Azza there is still one unexplained kill which must be caused by a SK or another scum faction.

Just a question: If Gazglum lies, why can't he be scum? If Lewwyn lies, why can't he be scum? Ok, Lewwyn has made the final vote on Azza, but Gazglum? What has he done that makes you certain that he can't be scum? I explained earlier (and you've seen it when you made the above post) that the scum could have additional kill-power besides their factional kill so there is no need for several scum-factions to explain the kills.

On that note, Mattimeo you might want to be explicit in your claim as well. Wasn't it Serdoa by the way who insisted that MJW make his claim explicit?

No, it was Serdoa who asked Ryan friendly to not spill more unclear stuff in the thread that he didn't understand because it included words that didn't have a reason to be were the where.

[Bobchillingworth]

I shouldnt say confirmed.. but suspected is a better word

I'm not sure you're really listening anymore, if you ever were, but I am not the only person here suspected of belonging to a third party. I'm only perceived as "more" likely to be third party in comparison with my likelihood to be a commie, due to my Day 1 vote. There is no reason for you to believe I'm more likely to be a SK or whatever compared with, say, Gazglum, who has essentially confessed to being a SK. Or even compared with Catwalk, apparently yet another gunshy vig.


Btw tons of legitimate vig roles is entirely believable given the set-up and setting. Fuck, we could have like 5 micro-factions for all I know, I think that's how the actual tabletop game is played (never participated in a session myself, just know what I've read online).

[Ryan]

Lynching Azza could be him getting selling him out. It has been done before that no way makes him innocent. Being Sk can also mean he is immune to being killed at night which doesnt make it any better( i cant remmember if he got shot actually , I am pretty sick atm.. would u mind if i not post for a while? ) . Id rather take a shot at it when we have the option to take it safely then wait for him to shoot every night as SK or Scum. Also he has the town ability to role block for a night. I am not leaving that ability on a confirmed killer I am sorry.

[Ryan]

In my opinion you are commie/sk, I dont have to agree with the arguments out there which " make gagzulm more likely to be sk than u " You are more likely to be sk to me.

[Serdoa]

While I see no reason why Bob could not be SK, I don't see any reason why he is more likely to be SK than any of the other claimants. And just to remind you Ryan, from the information we have so far we know from one of those that claimed (catwalk, Bob, Lewwyn, Gazglum) who has killed, no, who HAS to kill: Gazglum. By your logic, he can be the only sensible target.

On that note: Please all put yourself in Gazglum shoes, having a role REQUIRING you to kill each night. Do you think that would be fun for the player? Having to kill with a MUCH higher chance to kill his own faction then those he should hunt? I wouldn't like that role particularly much and I can't believe anyone would. And that's why I have a hard time believing that BRick would put such a role in the game, because honestly I think the most important part for him is that we all have fun.

[novice]

The whole thing boils down to getting an explanation from Rowain NOW, when we have ample time to verify it, rather than at LyLo. Rowain made an extraordinary claim and that requires extraordinary evidence. What is the big deal, if Rowain is town then scum will assume he's town and target him anyway. They don't care what his exact role is. Town will only benefit from Rowain having to claim. Everybody has a role, everybody is a target, for crying out loud.

If the above is true novice, why don't we all claim right now? Why are people asked not to claim or scolded for doing so? Why haven't you told us your role in detail when it makes no difference at all? Why haven't you asked for a mass-claim first thing on D1?

The difference is that Rowain has already claimed. The cat's out of the bag. If he's town he's now a target, if he's scum he got what he wanted. Now he needs to claim in full.

What is the difference between Gazglum and me in your reasoning?

Well I think people tend to stick close to the truth when fake claiming. So I would think that Gazglum is legit or a SK, and you're legit or scum.

Um, question: Why would we not kill the SK first in that case? The SK does get us rid of a kill for certain, while getting rid of the scum does not necessarily provide that (if it was the factional kill someone else will do it).

I put the vote on Bob because I suspect Lewwyn and not Gazglum of being the SK. I need to reconsider after MJW pointed out your scan result on Lewwyn.

[zakalwe]

On reflection, and having heard some more claims, Bob's claimed role sounds a bit weak. Nobody else has claimed limited shots, and Old Harry had unlimited shots.

Gazglum still managed to come across as someone caught red-handed with his own claim. I had a pretty strong feeling that Serdoa had tracked Gazglum, so I think he would have felt the same thing. In fact, he openly admitted to that, but still wants credit for claiming before Serdoa published his results.

So it feels a bit like the classic multi-faction scenario where we've actually caught multiple scum at the same time, from different factions, and they're all trying to argue for the "correct" lynch order.

Rowain, I agree that we do need to hear a proper claim from you, too. You kept repeating throughout day 2 that Serdoa should be one of the candidates on the block, and then had a very late and adamant change of heart. A more credible explanation is required. I don't think I will insist on hearing it today, though.

[Qgqqqqq]

You can vote me out if you want Zak. I've been bullied by him every single game we've played together. I was hoping yesterday was going to be the end of it and we could all turn a new leaf, be happy and play the game, but already two shots taken at me by Lewwyn since then. I don't want to see anyone gone, but if he's just gonna continue bullying and he doesn't even enjoy playing the actual game, well.

This is the last I will say on the subject, but if I ever run another game I will have a rule against repeated personal abuse, and be very willing to hand it out, regardless of what it does to balance. This sort of behavior is not okay.

Or wait, Qg gives people double-uses of their power and Serdoa was telling the truth? Did Qg ever role-reveal, or is this just something MJW is assuming but stating as fact? I am very confused.

Q was redirected to me on N1, Harry claimed that. On D2 I was told by BRick that I have two uses of my ability for the night. MJW now tells - after I revealed - that indeed Lewwyn - who claimed to have two uses of his ability for next night - was visited by Q. If you don't believe that Lewwyn, MJW and I are scum I hardly see how what I claimed taken together with what was claimed by others could be considered a lie.

Had MJW revealed my action at this time? I don't seem to recall him doing so, but I may have missed it

Bobchillingworth

If he's telling the truth it's possible for FIVE people to die in a single day. Lewwyn and him could have killed but didn't. And we have three kills today. I think five kills is a little too much and a limited-shot vig is really lame for this game.

Should I reveal the last person who visited lewwyn?

5 people? Not really with the clone system - weren't you expecting a kill-heavy game in this setup?

No, why did you reveal me?

Why? Why reveal, man? I only did because I had to. Is this just a thing everyone is doing now? Are we all vigs?

Yes, of course we are.



Okay at this point we have 17 players remaining and 6 of us have explicitly revealed our roles, a group which I believe is primarily town. I believe we have two choices: we can all stop revealing our roles unless there is a real reason to do so, or we can do a mass role reveal. Anything else seems likely to simply strengthen the scum at little benefit to ourselves. While it seems very early for a full reveal, I think the situation of role madness and the clones kill system means that it is worth considering. If we choose to do so, we should not simply reveal as soon as we come online, rather it should be scheduled in order of the scummiest players.


I personally don't believe we have a third faction. A SK is, IMO, possible but by no means certain. What I believe we have instead is a large scum faction (say, 6-7) and a large number of village vigs.


I think the vig shower is a bit of a red herring, so I hope it doesn't control the day. With that in mind, novice