Nothing like the Prodigal Sons: The Odd Couple actually play as themselves.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Also it looks like we got a TR connection with Seven from settling Teapot Dome.

Serdoa, really, I can't express how much I hate you.

Of course we did...

[Gaspar]

t82 - Godzilla

No, not this Godzilla...



This one: (Inappropriate language)

Yeah, it was that sort of a turn. Gavagai founded Confucianism alright, in Beryllium.




The second Godzilla moment was this:



Barb city founding 1SW of where we wanted to plant Bay of Pigs. Of course this means we have to take the free settler, but it means we have to orphan the fish until a million years from now when we can afford the settler + the units to defend it.

In better news, the gold mine at Seward's/Teapot completed this turn with the rarely seen use of 3 workers. When you're as commerce starved as we are, you get 3 workers on the gold mine. Why couldn't we be neighboring one of those guys who doesn't prioritize hooking his food instead?



The main debate of the turn involved what to build in Whiskey Ring. We considered both a Monastery, for the minor science boost as well as to get a missionary to Seward's, but we decided we'd get more value from a Barracks considering the preponderance of units we're building these days.




In other news, we've jumped to #2 in power so we can be certain Crazy Gavagai is #1. See gif above.



Meh.

[Gaspar]

Alright so, I'm desperately trying to keep this thread interesting because the thread being interesting might help keep my personal interest in the game from waning too heavily. What I'd like to talk about is tech. The gold mine and its associated ability to work higher happy caps has already begun a positive impact on our tech rate and further improvements are surely forthcoming. So what I'm going to do is look at some key techs and our current breakeven tech rate (which is roughly~57%, so I'll err towards 60% to account for some saved gold and likely improvements going forward.)

Sailing (154 beakers, 4 turns)

Pros: Can get a settler to an island city for improved commerce, continued expansion. Can build Triremes to harass unruly neighbors which as likely still the only MC civ in the neighborhood, should cause consternation and favorable hammer exchanges. Distant 3rd - can get lighthouses in the coastal plants.

Cons: Does nothing for our defense. Have to manage the logistics of settling an offshore burg. Does little to help our defense in the duel vs. Gavagai.

Masonry (123 beakers, 3 turns)
Construction (539 beakers, 14 turns*)

Pros: Masonry gives a couple boosts - allowing walls in border cities and opening Pyramids and GLH (with Sailing). Construction allows Catapults, the most important weapon in the underdog defenders arsenal. With enough Cats, we're pretty well safe until Knights, probably. Bridges will help the logistics around Iran Contra, which definitely slows down our E-W movements through the empire. Opens the possibility of using a GEngineer for an Engineering bulb if there are no wonders we like on the table and we get that roll.

Cons: Underwhelming tech otherwise - only opens Engineering in the "interesting tech" world. Very expensive at a time when our economic issues are more prevalent than hammer ones. Is very much a stay alive vs thrive choice.

Horseback Riding (385 beakers, 10 turns)

Pros: The other half of the key defender unit force along with Cats. Allows for more effective offensive sorties, which would possibly allow us to get off the back foot. If we can only afford one defensive tech, much cheaper than the Masonry-Construction combo.

Cons: That's all it does, including giving a bonus on nothing since its the end of its line.

Currency (616 beakers, 17 turns*)

Pros: The economic tech of the classical era and one of the two or three most important in the game. Allows wealth builds and provides an extra trade route. Markets give us a happy due to the ivory, and another if we ever research Optics for the Whales (unlikely.) Gives a bonus on CoL, which is important on the road to Civil Service.

Cons: We can't throw coins at Gavagai. Markets aren't much of a bonus because they're too expensive to build most places. If we don't tech Sailing and get 2 island cities settled/meet some faraway civs, the trade route bonus is muted.

Iron Working (308 beakers, 8 turns)

Pros: Can cut jungle at Seward's Folly and Iran Contra. Allows us to hook Rice and remove defensive terrain to attackers. Will reveal Iron, a valuable tile to work. Swords are good against archers, which Gavagai has built a few of.

Cons: LOLswordsmen.

That's pretty much the extent of the short term tech options. I still think given everything we have to go Construction - the odds on Gavagai sending a dozen slaved Axes at Plame and or Seward's are pretty high I think. Sailing > HBR is another option, it provides a slightly higher offensive value than Masonry > Construction and a stack of HAs is great for defense with a good road network. The problem is that if we did go that route, I feel like we'd still be more likely to tech Masonry > Construction before Currency. I guess the remotely reasonable choices are:

Sailing > Masonry > Construction > Currency > HBR
Sailing > HBR > Masonry > Construction > Currency
Masonry > Construction > Currency > Sailing > HBR
Currency > HBR > Sailing > Masonry > Construction

I think the first one is the logical choice. I'll open to the lurkers/teammates here.


*: Represents me estimating the arrow bonus we'll get from Math which completes at EOT.

[darrelljs]

Embrace oblivion and prepare your virgins for sacrifice?

Deflower your virgins so they won't be sacrificed.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Alright so, I'm desperately trying to keep this thread interesting because the thread being interesting might help keep my personal interest in the game from waning too heavily.

Well, FWIW, I'm down to lurking three threads in this game and only because they remain interesting.

Darrell

[Zed-F]

Analysis seems pretty sound.

[SadGit]

Cons: We can't throw coins at Gavagai.

Well you could, but thats normally more of a Spurs fan thing. While 2-0 is a frustrating score in the workersteal category, you will just have to make up for it in cityrazing.

[Gaspar]

Embrace oblivion and prepare your virgins for sacrifice?

Deflower your virgins so they won't be sacrificed.

Darrell

This seems like a win-win.

Cons: We can't throw coins at Gavagai.

Well you could, but thats normally more of a Spurs fan thing. While 2-0 is a frustrating score in the workersteal category, you will just have to make up for it in cityrazing.

[Gaspar]

I've suggested this before, but does anyone have any ideas for how to push Gavagai off the front foot here?

Every turn I log in and the advantage he got from his brokenly good capital and worker snipe tell more, combined with the best combination of economic traits. The more we wait, the more we condemn ourselves to a game of reacting to real and perceived threats from him. There is absolutely no way we can win a long game against him as things currently stand. While I think we can stand our ground long enough to make that long game painful for him, I aspire to more than that.

So - what options do we have to hurt him economically? To force him to defend uncomfortably? Noble has sort of hoped we could wait until he attacks, turn back the attack, then counter-attack. I don't think he's going to bring significant force anytime soon. Why would he? He already has the advantage and he can just poke at us here and there and double our city count and then overwhelm us with numbers later. So... if that option isn't on the table, what other options are? Do we tech HBR and build a half-dozen HAs and see if we can get a decent fork somewhere? Do we send a few skirmishers on pillaging parties? Do we tech Construction and walk up to Beryllium like an AI? None of these options seem particularly appealing but I do feel like we have to actually do something to him in addition to helping ourselves to have any hope here.

Any thoughts?

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Tech HBR and try to raze his holy city? Skirmisher swarm while we assume him to be building SAs? This at least would delay him getting his SAs online. The only advantage that I see currently in this horseshit setup is we can win a hammer differential by invading him and picking defensive cover. He can play the waiting game (better teching traits), has a food advantage (fucking capital), and his UB is perfect for whipping that extra food advantage.

The forge wins the efficiency game over the SA because it isn't consuming more food for more hammers, it just makes more hammers after the investment (which we get at discount). If we can pillage his food, we can nullify his advantage here. This means HAs. Make him make defensive choices, delay worker movements, generally screw with him and hope he makes a mistake.

I think we have to plan to get aggressive. The longer we wait, the more advantage he gains. God, I hate this game.