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The Way of the Civ Player - Ichabod and Wetbandit's PB13 Spoiler Thread

Pindicator can use the trade window with Mack and with TBS (gold lost/gained between turns) to get a rough idea of the scope of the deal.
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(February 10th, 2014, 12:31)Zed-F Wrote: Pindicator can use the trade window with Mack and with TBS (gold lost/gained between turns) to get a rough idea of the scope of the deal.

Well, maybe TBS already spent all the cash he got on upgrades. It's really tough to have accurate info.

Regardless, I just wanted to point out that I found that comment to be completely unnecessary and I pointed out how easily I could fabricate a similar claim. Amusingly enough, Mackoti used the exact same example in his post in the Tech Thread lol.

Besides, Pindicator and Mackoti aren't really attacking Mackoti and Pindicator. They are attacking TBS and Nakor (because the alleged immoral conduct was made by TBS and Nakor). So, before doing this sort of taunting comment, people should take a step back and see exactly the meaning of what they are saying and how it implicates other people. Luckily, I think both Nakor and TBS are more chill guys and won't take offense.

Well, no point discussing it anymore. Just thought I'd drop my 2 cents about the issue on my thread (where I'm allowed to make my own rage comments about the game, which are always to be understood as strictly "inside the game's borders" comments.
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Since it seems everyone is really enjoying lurking this game, I decided to make some updates regarding the situation of my empire, so people can have a better overall picture of the game. First, I'll recapitulate what I have done; later, I'll post some screenshots.

What have I been doing this past turns?

Well, I stopped reporting by the time I was finishing to conquer Slow. I captured the land cities without much trouble and, after that, it was quite a while until I managed to get his only offshore city, since it took a lot of time to get galleys in that area. It was pretty nice so far.

After that, I started making the decisions that would end any of my low chances of winning.

Based on my previous analysis of the continents posts, I decided that, if I was to have a chance at winning this, I had to conquer WLP. I think a lot of my predictions regarding developments on the other continents actually happened (not that this was a big accomplishment, since most of them were obvious to some extent), with the big dogs starting to feed on the small ones. So, I couldn't get left behind in the land race...

I think this conclusion still holds ground, but the mine execution of it was terrible...

Ok, after conquering Slow, I kept on building an army. I thought I could attack WLP before he got Knights and Pikes, so I rushed to Guilds as fast I could and started pumping out knights. I used a GA to switch civics to Vassalage (for the extra xp on the units - idea was to get in Bureau before the GA ended), Caste System (to get some more GPs during the GA) and Buddhism/Theocracy (for the XP, even though Buddhism is far from present on all my cities). I finished the HE on BoM (while DP built the Palace and became the new Capital) and started building 1t 11xp knights there (that was probably the only thing I did right in the planning of this attack).

Of course, I greatly underestimated WLP. He obviously knew what I was up to: I was first in power and I kept building more units + he is my only neighbour = obvious attack is coming. I saw him amassing a lot of longbows in a city near our frontier (with my sentry HA) and that motivated me a bit more - while he had tons of LBs, he had no catapults and decent attack units in sight, so a slow moving stack could never been destroyed. Yes, complete delusional thinking... Frankly, I should have spent one 100% espionage turn on WLP to be able to see his cities, but I was afraid that would telegraph (my already obvious) moves...

Anyway, the GA was a good move, I think, but I should have used it for a different purpose (I really needed to change civics + adopt a religion). First, while caste was needed to get other GP during the GA, it has nothing to do with a decent war preparation. Speaking truthfully, I was overwhelmed by the perspective of making a whipping plan for loads of knights and cats, so I went with the easier solution of Caste + workshops. Again, if I was to attack a non-backwater neighbour, I should have commited fully. Lesson learned...

With the power of hindsight, I think I should just have entered on a phase of economic development after the Slow war. I had enough of an army to protect against WLP (and I highly doubt he'd want to attack me), so I should just have turtled up and developed. While preparing for the stupid war against WLP, I didn't grow a lot of my cities and I had to give up on building the newly avaiable useful buildings and reaching the most important techs of this era. More specifically, what I should have done:

*Get courthouses in my production cities, for the money savings and the espionage points - I should start dumping this points in WLP, to help a future war.
*Build wealth in some cities to help me get to the key economic techs of this era: education (for Oxford in DP), PP (for the added village/town commerce) and economics (because I have something like 30 cities and another TR on every single one of them would be a massive commerce increase) -> I went for Engineering and was too busy building units to build wealth.
*Make a Oxford plan and get it fast - plan for the other NW too.
*After these key economic techs, go for rifling. WLP was attacking retep and he has way less land than I do, I think I could have reached that with a big advantage. That + Nationalism + loads of cities would mean a very quick and powerful army.
*Spread buddhism around.
*Prepare for a second GA where I would revolt to FM and Nationalism.

Instead I attacked WLP with military tech parity and got schooled by him (you probably can read that in his thread). That was another mistake, I should have gone for a razing campaign against him, since it was obvious I couldn't really capture and keep his cities. I should have razed his eastern holdings and weakened him decisively for a future conquest. Oh, well...

And, anotehr big mistake was firing a second GA after the first to get more units faster (yes, I wanted more of those now useless units). Terrible, terrible, terrible mistake. That GA was such a waste. I didn't get any GP from it, I couldn't revolt to any useful civics (I left that GA in Caste System, which also might have been a huge mistake, I should have gone for slavery, most likely), it served no purpose other than losing my 2-GP GA.

Of course, this was the mistakes I made on a grand strategy level. There's also loads of micro mistakes and general Civ managing mistakes, like having too few workers (yes, I still have this problem)...

It's really frustrating how I keep making the same mistakes in this games. One of them that is showing really badly here is that I can't manage a post mid-game economy. While my opponents are on the 2000+ GNP, I am at 900 when going max beakers in a tech with prereqs...

Anyway, some pictures to make this post less dull:

























I'll make another post with a more in depth look at my civ soon.
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By the way, my objective, going forward, is to finish on the top 5 positions of the game. I'll try to gun for top 3, but I highly doubt this is possible.
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alright thanks for the report. sounds like you're pretty down, what goals do you have for the next bit?
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(February 13th, 2014, 08:18)Ceiliazul Wrote: alright thanks for the report. sounds like you're pretty down, what goals do you have for the next bit?

Well, it's frustrating at times to have to face your mistakes, but that's the way to get better, I think. What frustrates me the most is when I repeat previous mistakes or I do unjustifiable ones (like settling that city near WLP in the start of the game and firing the second GA).

Right now, i'm thinking of fixing my economy as best as I can. I'll try to get a tech lead on WLP and attack him again at some point. My main focus now is too reach PP, economics and Nationalism, doing a revolt for Nationhood and Free Market. I'm building universities to allow Oxford in DP.

I have some oportunistic ideas too. Like, if Mackoti starts beating FinHarry too much, I think i'll try to get their island cities. Maybe attack dtay's island city near TheTidesofLife, but that wouldn't give me much value.

Basically, i'll try to get some experience on playing the post mid-game, which is somewhere I lack MP experience. I'm thinking of using what I've learned here in another game, most likely a PB with similar settings. I think I played a better game here than I did in PB7 and for that I'm happy. Now, if I can play an even better game in the next PB, that'd be wonderful.
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I have a bad feeling about the consequences of this reload request. Civstats shows that Mack already took a city from Pindooter (and dtay took a city from TBS, but I don't think dtay will oppose the reload, since his war seems to be in the mop-up stage) and, considering their previous misunderstandings, I highly doubt they'll reach an agreement...
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Poor Pindicator, hopefully the mistake wasn't game breaking. People shouldn't be in such a rush to play (especially when the delay was caused by technical issues), the game isn't going anywhere. I like to see the turn rolling soon after I already played, but I understand it's not always possible. I worry about a bad turn pace in a game that's starting, but when we already reached 150+ turns into the game, it probably means things are working fine.
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Hey Ichabod, great post. It's not that often someone is so clear-headed about looking at their game, and its a real help to noobier players to read that kind of analysis.

I think some of the reason that you're not making it into the top 5 is because you're not devoting the kind of mental energy to calculating everything that some of the other players are. And there's no shame in that, its only a game and nobody should feel they have to put in more effort than they want to. And you're still comfortably beating 2/3 of the board.

Probably a lot of players (including me) struggle in the mid-game due to a lack of experience with handling an empire that developed. If this game makes it to the modern era it will be interesting to see how everyone handles that, because as far as I know that level of development is unprecedented in RB pitboss games.
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A closer look at my empire:

1. My good cities:

Deserted Prophet, the new Capital, working its way through a university. I'll place Oxford here.




Shower in Red finally finished the NE. It'll work more specialists soon, but for now it needs to work hammers to finish an university, since I need it for the OU.




Birth of Musashi, my old Capital and a production powerhouse. I managed things suboptimally here, since while working Caste workshops, I constantly have more hammers than I can overflow while building military units (even knights, the most expensive unit I can build).




Talk of the Town is building the Moai with stone I borrowed from Pindooter (a badly timed loan, because I should have waited to do it when I could also build the OU, the Moai could wait). Far from an awesome Moai spot, but at least it can build it fast.




2. My not so great cities

These cities show some problems that I'm having with lack of workers and lack of slavery. Lets take a look.

This is an obvious example of lack of workers. I'm constantly losing 2,5 hammers here, since a plains workshop is 5 hammers, while a plains hill is 4 (so, at the current tile configuration, 2 hammers times 25% from the forge). It goes deeper than that, because I could be working that grass tile and getting more food.




Another example of lack of worker labor. Yes, I'm working two citizens to get the lighthouse faster, which is really bad. At least next turn I'll finish a workshop here, to help things. Slavery could have really helped this city.




No slavery, 'nuff said.




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Random information.

Demos. GNP will improve soon, when I get PP. Free Market will probably really help, but that's still a bit away. Take a look at that useless number 2 power. You'll get a closer look soon, too.




Civics. Really should have waited with that second GA to get a bit more modern ones... Now I'll have to eat the anarchy.




Religion. I'm getting the missionaries built, though it's already late. The hammers I used in military after Slow's war should have gone here (between other things).




Espionage. next turn i'll see WLP research. It's looking a bit better after I got courthouses.




My stack of doom!








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