[Spoilers] Bacchus debuts on RB showing unmatched vision and slick dice-rolling

[Bacchus]

A cothon in the capital will bring 10 gold. I'm a silly goose for not getting these earlier, but I somewhat feel I didn't have a choice. At least it felt like I really need Gunpowder, what will all the knights frolicking around. But we'll see.

[Bacchus]

I'm sure Pindicooter will chuckle at seeing this thread updated. For the last turns I've mostly been doing this:



In preparation for getting Banking, which I have now. But, logged in to see this:


And, inevitably, this:


Not that I didn't consider this might happen, albeit muskets are primarily contra Maya, but I am somewhat puzzled. If they felt I bought Seahawks for too little a sum, why not tell me on the turn we transacted? Why now bother pulling out 12 units and the navy for this expedition, spare power that I know they have anyway, so it's not as if they must convince me in the credibility of their threats. In any case, what exactly are they threatening? It's not to put me out of the running for victory, that's for sure — but they do threaten to undermine my ability to build troops which could defend against plako, something that by now I am doing out of good sport and largely for the leaders' sake.

Not sure how to respond yet. In terms of a local calculation, I am indifferent — I'm losing one way or another, sooner or later doesn't really make a difference to me. Maybe this is the difference between surviving to the end in some form or getting eliminated, but again, I can't really say that I care. In terms of meta, though, this is a bad precedent — of course leaders can threaten crippling attacks against laggers, but should those threats make laggers finance the leaders' economies on demand? I don't think so.

Let's see what they are actually demanding. I've held Seahawks for about 15 turns now, Pindicooter claim that I was underpaying them 15.6 gpt (the value of the offered peace deal amortized for 15), given that I have been paying 12 gpt. They effectively claim the city was worth 27.6 gpt to them, which is frankly tosh — after I've built a bunch of exp-boosted infrastructure, including a newly finished Cothon, it only makes 37.5 gold-beakers gross.This is also after pop growth, which added some base commerce off working the coast. When I received the city, as you can see from a shot on the previous page, it was only making 20 gold-beakers gross, even provided that Pindicooter have Free Market, their trade routes must be full up, so it couldn't have made more that ~24 (actually, the current high level stems in no small part from the fact that my trade routes are at 7gpt). OTOH, even if they are overvaluing Seahawks, it's not by that much, so it's not as if they are using their power to suck out the juices of the laggers to finance their race against mackoti.

Amusingly, because of my higher worth trade routes, and the +100% construction speed on Market and Cothon, there is still a deal to be had here. The city is making 34 net for me (not counting the indirect maintenance costs it creates in other cities), so I could easily pay the Vikings their desired 27gpt, and still make a profit on running this island. The arrival of this fleet, though, makes me think that they rather have the fun of burning stuff for the kicks than accept a mutually-profitable deal.

Decisions, decisions....

[Bacchus]

Offered 26gpt and logged out without finishing turn and left the slider at lower. I will probably accept whatever they come back with, even if it's the original offer (as it's not exploitative).

[Bacchus]

Well, Pindicator has logged in, but there offer wasn't accepted and there is no counter-offer. I don't get these guys, it stands to reason that there is some gpt rate at which they'd rather lease the city out than hold onto it, why not offer it? I'm even more convinced now that they are just after some good old warring fun.

Re-offered their initial peace offer and finished turn. Like as not, they will reject even that.

In case you Viking raiders read this post-game — what did you value this city at, if anything?

[Bacchus]

Some more strangeness:



I can't even take that, alas, not without courting a serious spat with plako.

[Zed-F]

I don't get these guys, it stands to reason that there is some gpt rate at which they'd rather lease the city out than hold onto it, why not offer it?

I think the part you're not getting is the fact that your original agreement was not a rental or a lease. It was extortion backed by threat of force.

Since you appear to only view things in monetary terms, what's the value of a friendly or at least non-hostile relationship with a neighbor that is more powerful than you?

[Bacchus]

It was extortion backed by threat of force.

Well, if that's how it was seen, I guess this is a good place to say, if only for the sake of the future games, that the very idea of this Carthage extorting these Vikings is frankly ridiculous. As I said from the very start, this city is planted too far out for the Vikings to upkeep or defend it, which is the only reason why I wanted to take it, not because I felt that I am in a position to extort the Vikings. Extortion with Numids, I chuckle.

Since you appear to only view things in monetary terms, what's the value of a friendly or at least non-hostile relationship with a neighbor that is more powerful than you?

In this particular situation, pretty much zero. And that's the other reason it all seems a bit silly — if the transfer of Seahawks really was viewed as extortion, and this is some sort of a punitive attack in retaliation, I certainly shouldn't accept their peace. Let them burn my cities, if they think that the threat of razes at this stage can discourage anything at all, then they are just wrong and they really shouldn't waste their time and units on them. In meta terms, I am quite committed to opportunism when lagging far behind, even with the understanding that a leader suffering from such an attack will occasionally throw an irrational fit and go a-revenging with units that could be better used elsewhere. Bestowing righteous punishment on an annoying pest feels good and is perfectly understandable, but thinking that punitive attacks will discourage me from opportunism in a similar situation in the future is just dead wrong. Ask Gavagai

Still, the irony is that I didn't even view this as an opportunist attack and if my maths is right, this "extortion" actually left Scoopin richer, if not by much.

[Bacchus]

For dislosure's sake, PM thread (in reverse order):

Bacchus wrote:
Well, I figured that the probability that this concerns our negotiation is quite high -- hence my message, precisely to avoid the bothersome reload. I'm out now, all yours.

scooter Wrote:
Oh, haha, I should have been more clear . The issue was that we tried to accept your latest peace offer this morning, but the game crash prevented us from doing so. So I re-offered it earlier, and I was unpausing so that you could login and accept it, since that might be quicker than a reload.

Bacchus Wrote:
Cool, thanks. I haven't posted in TT just to follow your choice of keeping the other party secret. I mean, I don't even technically know that this is to do with me, nor do I have to. But I'm around

scooter Wrote:
Copying Brick on this so this is all above-board on communicating.

I'll login to unpause so you are not stuck in a diplo window.

Bacchus Wrote:
Hello, Vikings

To keep this as AI Diplo as possible: I am around to log in.

Regards,
Bacchus

[Dhalphir]

Hey, congratulations on a better played game - I didn't expect to outlive you with Plako next to me. Do you have any thoughts to share on our game?

[Bacchus]

Hey Dhal, GG, you were dealt a much tougher hand — I'm not sure how much better played this is, especially in the last 50ish turns. As you can see from my login timings and lack of reportage, I'm taking it quite easy.

My thoughts are mostly on the original fuck-up with defense, which had me throwing warriors at Retep — I took a gamble and lost, and that was a large part of the game right there. The second big defining moment was when I was concurrently attacked by WilliamLP and Retep whilst you went ahead and settled the jungle. I wasn't in the running by then, but that series of episodes really ensured my place at the bottom of the table, very nasty timing for me. Going ahead, I will be largely doing what you were now, just with Muskets instead of Longbows. At least I have so many Flank-promoted Numids that plako can't really bring siege out against me until he has cannons. Not that it will take him too long to get them.