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Gavagai's spoiler thread

Well, in a hypothetical scenario where I refrain from taking these workers and get a peaceful border with Gaspar until, like, T120 I, of course, would be better off. But what is the probability of such scenario? I would estimate it as very low. What would happen if they kept workers? For start, I think they would have the Oracle like 10 turns earlier; they would have an access to cheap forges 10 turns earlier; they would be able to build settlers instead of replacement workers and would have more cities and would have them earlier. They would be considerably more developed then in current universe. On the other hand, I would be slightly weaker as I wouldn't have two free workers.
Now, all these wouldn't matter for me at all if they remained peaceful; with Darius I would outtech them anyway at some point. But would they remain peaceful? I don't think so. Just about now they would hit a window where their relative advantage over me is the highest, later I would inevitably start to run away in techs. They would attack me, at least that would be a rational thing for them to do. The war was pretty difficult with weakened Gaspar. What would be the war with a much stronger one? Imagine what would happen if I allowed him to keep his workers and then would be attacked anyway. I would feel myself like a complete idiot, I think.
Now, theoretically I have no way of knowing if Gaspar was planning this attack from start; but lurkers comments indicate that my worker steal was a trigger for his actions. Well, even if he wasn't planning an attack back then, it matters not. He still could have changed his mind by now and attack me for some other reason. May be he would have strong enough army to actually defeat me. May be my early attack saved me from elimination by weakening dangerous rival. Who knows? And how things like that can be known?
And it leads to a more general point. My philosophy in games is never to try to read opponent's mind. May be some other person can build an accurate model of rival's consciousness and make a prediction like "he would attack me later if I steal his workers but wouldn't if I don't do it". But this person is definitely not me. I can't make such predictions, I can't know how my actions, amongst miriad of other factors, would affect other people's plans and that's why I simply try to improve my own position and decrease my dependency on my opponent. I have stolen two workers; and now I'm second in GNP even after the worst possible scenario has happened. Where would I be if I didn't steal the workers and the worst possible scenario would then have happened? I bet my position would be worse.
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I played many games with gaspar so i know what i am talking.
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As I have already pointed out, such experience allows to make a prediction like "if I take his workers, he will attack me". It still doesn't allow to make a prediction like "if I don't take his workers, he won't attack me". Anyone can attack anyone else at any point of the game for a variety of reasons and no benevolence which you demonstrate towards your rivals can change this fact. And if you think that it is highly probable that you will be attacked anyway then taking workers is a good idea, in my opinion.
Also, I played zero games against Gaspar before this one and couldn't make even the first prediction.
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Gaspar wouldn't have attacked you. Not saying you are wrong about whether the workers were the right call, but he wouldn't have attacked you otherwise.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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(February 26th, 2014, 20:59)Lewwyn Wrote: Gaspar wouldn't have attacked you. Not saying you are wrong about whether the workers were the right call, but he wouldn't have attacked you otherwise.

I wonder how can you know that. Best you can say is "he wasn't going to attack me until I have stolen his workers". We can't know what ideas he would have had by now in this alternative universe, how his plans would have changed.
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(February 27th, 2014, 03:07)Gavagai Wrote:
(February 26th, 2014, 20:59)Lewwyn Wrote: Gaspar wouldn't have attacked you. Not saying you are wrong about whether the workers were the right call, but he wouldn't have attacked you otherwise.

I wonder how can you know that. Best you can say is "he wasn't going to attack me until I have stolen his workers". We can't know what ideas he would have had by now in this alternative universe, how his plans would have changed.

Gaspar doesn't really believe in ancient war, hates it. Noble is not good at war and usually would prefer to only attack if he has an overwhelming advantage. Also they are Industriuous so they'd sit back and wonderwhore for as long as possible. Just who they are.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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The disclaimer is I may have taken the workers if given the chance, and he should have defended them, at least with the ability to take the workers back with a counter-attack.

But you can never reason in terms of pure logic and "if X then Y" with people. But you can still make decisions based on belief and likelihood and incomplete information. You don't know if he would have attacked if took the workers, or even if he would have attacked anyway if you didn't, but that doesn't mean that your action didn't influence the likelihood of whether he will. Or if you could correctly change your degree of belief based on your action. You don't need to read a crystal ball for that at all, you just need to suppose that people follow the tendency in human nature for retribution more often than not.

(And I still maintain that retribution is quite rational when repeating many games with some of the same people who are observing your actions.)
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I feel it's an ethical issue. I enjoy games the most when everybody tries to win the current game. Throwing away your game for revenge turns you into a king maker. I'd even go so far as playing for #2 or #3 even if I know I can't win, rather than treating everything but victory as failure. I agree that retribution can make sense if you treat non-victory as a failure by definition, but is the game enjoyable if everybody plays that way? I suppose I could get a reputation for being an easy target that way, if I played out enough games. My preferred solution for that in other games is to find players with more or less the same approach to fair play. I'm not doing anyone a favour by joining a game that they want to play by different standards than what I like.
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King Makers are inevitable. Anyone who doesn't have a reasonable shot at winning but possesses enough power to damage a leading contender holds the fate of the game in their hands. Sometimes players are happy to ignore the leaders and play in their sandbox if left alone, but you can't expect people to stop paying attention to the top dogs once their chance of winning is nonexistent. There's nothing "unethical" with Player C picking a fight with Player A, even if that leads to Player B winning- it's not C's responsibility to ensure an even contest between A & B.
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(February 27th, 2014, 09:47)WilliamLP Wrote: And I still maintain that retribution is quite rational when repeating many games with some of the same people who are observing your actions.

I don't think I would like the environment in which newcomers have to protect their workers with spears and veterans need nothing but their reputation to protect them...
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