[LURKERS] Sweet 16: Civ Party Fun Time and Philosophical Debate

[Bobchillingworth]

I'd actually like to see Sullla win (is it kosher to root for people? We don't seem to often) for the satisfaction of seeing someone beat that Zulu monstrosity - you know, upset victories and all that. Nothing against you guys, Seven and Krill, when you read this after the game, of course.

I root for someone in almost every game I spend more than a couple minutes lurking. It's only an issue if you try to help out a team when you aren't solely lurking them.

[TheHumanHydra]

Of course. I guess it's just people don't usually say who (if anyone) they're rooting for.

As for the actual game, does anyone think Sullla's city of Nancy should be in the spot 1E he originally planned for? He moved it to make it less provocative toward and easier to defend against Gaspar, but in neither position is it any easier to fork or stage against, and the fish he would have claimed would not have been contested; the crosses still wouldn't overlap. I know this is presumptuous of me to say, but wasn't giving up such a high-value tile for those reasons questionable?

[scooter]

I don't know why we all keep calling this a greens game, it was definitely never advertised as such. Conspiracies aside, pretty much all the big names who joined this are people who are on record as disliking RBMod, and a lot of the PB games that have launched lately are RBMod.

Also, on one hand I totally get Sullla's complaints about the importance of neighbors here (I'm not a big fan of this map setup, I suspect it's a lot more fun to lurk than to play), but on the other hand I also think if on T0 you had offered Seven the chance to swap from retep being his closest neighbor to bantams, he would have taken that trade in a heartbeat.

I was also kinda amused by Sullla being baffled over Goreripper's pretty obviously phony declaration. I think this is where Sullla could use a teammate a little better at reading the metagame. He's noted several times that Goreripper has played a good game so far, so in this case you should generally assume that Goreripper wouldn't do this unless there was some benefit to him. With those assumptions in mind, I don't think it's that great of a leap to figure out that it's misdirection on who Goreripper's actual target is (Hashoosh). Granted, I'm saying this with omniscience so salt grains apply, but I've easily figured stuff like this out without omniscience just fine (as have many others). Whether that misdirection is worth nuking trade routes is another story entirely, but that's beside the point.

I'm kinda hoping Gaspar/Noble leave Sullla alone, mostly because I'd like to see a true horizontal vs vertical scenario actually play out. I still think Seven wins this game, but I'd rather that be decided by the decisions of Seven and Sullla rather than Gaspar/Noble.

[SadGit]

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Okay, perhaps I should have checked out the context for the quote first :P
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Dont blame yourself. I find that once you cram on the tinfoil hat, there is not much room left for context.

[Serdoa]

Called it.

And tbh, that attack is as bad as their whole game and probably also the most spiteful thing they could do. It does show the reason why they don't win though: They try to hurt others to bring them down to their level, and that isn't working in a FFA with 12 players. They did the same earlier with Gavagai. Instead of trying to catch up, they invented reasons why they had to attack him. And over that attack they forgot to get any kind of economy going. Net effect? 1 razed city of Gavagai, slowing him down against Seven/Krill and Mike. And that's it. Nothing that they actually gained by doing that.

[Lewwyn]

I think you're being really harsh on them Serdoa. What do you expect them to do? Sullla is libbing Nationalism, he's france, he can tech gunpowder in likely two turns and then have 2 move musketeers being drafted everywhere in 3 turns. NobleGas have really left it too far to really take advantage of Sullla's insane farmer's gambit. If they don't attack, they will likely be trying to fend off hordes of musketeers with cats and HAs.

I'm kinda hoping Gaspar/Noble leave Sullla alone, mostly because I'd like to see a true horizontal vs vertical scenario actually play out. I still think Seven wins this game, but I'd rather that be decided by the decisions of Seven and Sullla rather than Gaspar/Noble.

Right. So convert everyone else to AI and let them go at it? Civ 4 isn't played in a vacuum. The decision by NobleGas to attack affects Sullla as much as the decision not to attack affects Sullla.

I think the reason Sullla is looking to end the game is he's realized that Seven had a continent to himself and after retep died didn't have any neighbors. The reason he kept throwing shade at Seven for settling so many cities earlier is he thought Seven would be punished for over expanding by a neighbor. Now he realizes that Seven is just sandboxing with twice the land of everyone else.

[Serdoa]

I think you're being really harsh on them Serdoa. What do you expect them to do? Sullla is libbing Nationalism, he's france, he can tech gunpowder in likely two turns and then have 2 move musketeers being drafted everywhere in 3 turns. NobleGas have really left it too far to really take advantage of Sullla's insane farmer's gambit. If they don't attack, they will likely be trying to fend off hordes of musketeers with cats and HAs.

Do you think it will be different now? Maybe if Gavagai joins in, but I wouldn't be too certain about that. For Gavagai imo the best move would be to wait a few turns, let them get engaged for real, have Mike whip away pop - and then attack Gaspar/Nobles flank that is most likely unprotected and roll them up from their.

If Gavagai doesn't join in at all though, I can easily see Mike losing a city or two - and then drafting Muskets and crushing them. I don't think it will be any different for them, except that the hammer will fall sooner.

Now, you are right, I am harsh on them. But that's mostly because I think they can play much better than they have shown in this game and it is a shame to see that. And I think this attack is just another point which they could have handled better. But they are all over the place with no clear plan it seems, just doing what looks best that one turn. I had expected them to do much better, with Gaspar making the long-term plans and reading the meta while Noble is doing the micro-stuff.

I think the reason Sullla is looking to end the game is he's realized that Seven had a continent to himself and after retep died didn't have any neighbors. The reason he kept throwing shade at Seven for settling so many cities earlier is he thought Seven would be punished for over expanding by a neighbor. Now he realizes that Seven is just sandboxing with twice the land of everyone else.

Probably true. I still think the actual idea of the map was not that bad, but copper at the start (instead of close by) was a rookie map-maker mistake and it was punished. I had expected to find their neighbour, compete a little bit, but not getting crushed either way. And by T75 they would already have met a few people overseas. And with the small canals between the land-masses, they could have in theory attacked by sea. With the amount of land for everyone, no one really should have had reason to go to full-out war before T120+.

Obviously copper-placement + believing everyone at least competing for real (Bantams...) made this a joke.

[Lewwyn]

I think you're being really harsh on them Serdoa. What do you expect them to do? Sullla is libbing Nationalism, he's france, he can tech gunpowder in likely two turns and then have 2 move musketeers being drafted everywhere in 3 turns. NobleGas have really left it too far to really take advantage of Sullla's insane farmer's gambit. If they don't attack, they will likely be trying to fend off hordes of musketeers with cats and HAs.

Do you think it will be different now? Maybe if Gavagai joins in, but I wouldn't be too certain about that. For Gavagai imo the best move would be to wait a few turns, let them get engaged for real, have Mike whip away pop - and then attack Gaspar/Nobles flank that is most likely unprotected and roll them up from their.

If Gavagai doesn't join in at all though, I can easily see Mike losing a city or two - and then drafting Muskets and crushing them. I don't think it will be any different for them, except that the hammer will fall sooner.

Even in that case they're looking at a lose-lose situation. Wait for musketeers or invite a flank attack. So again at this point it doesn't matter what they do, no? And yes their play to this point has led to this, but again what do you expect them to do now? They still have to play the game. They can't just convert to AI too. To condemn them as spiteful is too much. You would rather they just sat and waited for the end to come? That's a bit self righteous.

BTW I'm not saying you're wrong about them not playing well or a bit haphazardly.

[Fintourist]

This is a common ailment for many players (especially when they're new to multiplayer), and I've certainly suffered from it myself. I think Mikehendi just doesn't have the fortitude right now to play against real humans who mess up his plans.

[Jowy]

Serdoa, if they are doing it because they think it's the best move they can make to win the game, then it's really the opposite of a spiteful move, even though the end result might be the same.