[LURKERS] Sweet 16: Civ Party Fun Time and Philosophical Debate

[Lewwyn]

Usualy i kill them, sooner or latter when is easiear , cheaper or more fun to do so.

Oh yeah, sure, easy to say when you're Mackoti...

[Catwalk]

Last question was worded poorly, what I meant was really whether reputation is in any way a factor. Several players have suggested that vengeance is a valid strategy because it makes opponents fear you in future games. In an anonymous game there would not be that benefit to exacting vengeance. Thank you for the answers!

[SevenSpirits]

We were discussing if there is a good argument against attacks of these kind, not whether I have any problems. So far, I don't see how argument "it will make them love you" can be convincing for reasons Machiavelly pointed out.

What I am pointing out is that you have complained a lot about these "unpredictable" actions by the team you attacked. I think that if you are ignoring the effects that your own actions have, you probably shouldn't complain about anything that other people do.

I find your absolute rules to be ridiculous. "You should pay no heed to how your actions influence your opponents." "It's not possible to fully understand your opponent's decisionmaking process, so you should ignore it entirely." "Subjugation is always superior to manipulation." "There is no reason not to seek out opportunities to attack people and take them." This is not a good way to make decisions. Good decisions are made by weighing outcomes.

The premises and logic are very lacking, too. I don't even know where to start on it. I guess I don't care. Enjoy your philosophy.

[Becko]

We were discussing if there is a good argument against attacks of these kind, not whether I have any problems. So far, I don't see how argument "it will make them love you" can be convincing for reasons Machiavelly pointed out.

Well, there's always Machiavelli himself:

Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge. (The Prince, ch. 3, Marriott's translation)

Freely translated into modern English: If you're going to throw the first punch, you'd better make sure the other guy stays down.

[Jowy]

We were discussing if there is a good argument against attacks of these kind, not whether I have any problems. So far, I don't see how argument "it will make them love you" can be convincing for reasons Machiavelly pointed out.

Well, there's always Machiavelli himself:

Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge. (The Prince, ch. 3, Marriott's translation)

Freely translated into modern English: If you're going to throw the first punch, you'd better make sure the other guy stays down.

This is a really good way to look at it. There is a downside to it, though. You can't let others run all over you just because you're afraid of what they'll do. If you never punish them for overextending or whatever, then they will abuse that to the maximum against you and you will be known as the guy who won't stand up for himself. So sometimes you must punish other players even if it means they might get mad and you might have to spend the rest of the game dueling them.

[Old Harry]

I'd just like it to go on record that anyone who steals workers off me had better kill me or be Mackoti

[mackoti]

I'd just like it to go on record that anyone who steals workers off me had better kill me or be Mackoti

I never declared war to steal workers never and i had many oportunities, is ture i got workers frome enemies but involved a plan to destroy them.Why i didnt? Becasue i know how mad i would be to have my workers destroyed,i couldnt pass over that(i am talking about game first 50 turns).
About punishing other is beter before do that is to ask if you are not punishing yourself more by doing that, if you accept the price you migh pay go ahead.Aniway jowy seeing your games until now i know i would not enjoy starting near you , cause you are ready to sacrifice peace for very litle things.

[Jowy]

I'd just like it to go on record that anyone who steals workers off me had better kill me or be Mackoti

I never declared war to steal workers never and i had many oportunities, is ture i got workers frome enemies but involved a plan to destroy them.Why i didnt? Becasue i know how mad i would be to have my workers destroyed,i couldnt pass over that(i am talking about game first 50 turns).
About punishing other is beter before do that is to ask if you are not punishing yourself more by doing that, if you accept the price you migh pay go ahead.Aniway jowy seeing your games until now i know i would not enjoy starting near you , cause you are ready to sacrifice peace for very litle things.

When I came back after a break and every game was suddenly no diplo, I thought that people want to play against robots, and that the expectation was that everyone plays to win and doesn't let their feelings get the best of them since it's no diplo. But I now know that the social aspect is still very prevalent in the game, it's just harder to control without speaking to anyone directly. I expect my play to be way more considerate in future games.

That said, don't get too comfortable if you spawn next to me.. Only chance for a noob to defeat a much stronger player is an early game strike, when the game is still relatively simple and the stronger player hasn't had time to pull ahead :P

[Catwalk]

I never declared war to steal workers never and i had many oportunities, is ture i got workers frome enemies but involved a plan to destroy them.Why i didnt? Becasue i know how mad i would be to have my workers destroyed,i couldnt pass over that(i am talking about game first 50 turns).
About punishing other is beter before do that is to ask if you are not punishing yourself more by doing that, if you accept the price you migh pay go ahead.Aniway jowy seeing your games until now i know i would not enjoy starting near you , cause you are ready to sacrifice peace for very litle things.

I think this is interesting mackoti. Are you saying that you generally don't steal easy workers because your enemy might punish you, but you would think twice about punishing an enemy who did that?

[mackoti]

I never declared war to steal workers never and i had many oportunities, is ture i got workers frome enemies but involved a plan to destroy them.Why i didnt? Becasue i know how mad i would be to have my workers destroyed,i couldnt pass over that(i am talking about game first 50 turns).
About punishing other is beter before do that is to ask if you are not punishing yourself more by doing that, if you accept the price you migh pay go ahead.Aniway jowy seeing your games until now i know i would not enjoy starting near you , cause you are ready to sacrifice peace for very litle things.

I think this is interesting mackoti. Are you saying that you generally don't steal easy workers because your enemy might punish you, but you would think twice about punishing an enemy who did that?

Nope, my post was related with what Jowy said that he feels the need to punish someone which is not guarding workers as should , if someone takes my workers i will go mad thats is what i wanted to say, because for me early game workers are very important aset,same value as city if not bigger.