Missile Base costs & conundrums

[sargon0]

Missile Base Theories
Missile Bases are a major part of the game but are couched in a certain mystery. The game does not show their cost like ships and when are upgrades needed. Some statements from the Official Strategy Guide (OSG):

1. Missile bases consist of a slab fortified by your best armour and a three-tube missile rack which can fire an inexhaustible supply of your latest missiles each with enhanced speed and range. Also includes your best DS, BC & ECM plus free Battle Scanner.
2. Costs for Armour, BC, DS, ECM are about 60% of the cost on a large ship but missiles are about 5.4 times cost (single-shot & Scatter-Pack) due to unlimited supply and enhanced speed/range. OSG has tables of item's costs.
3. Costs drop with tech level due to miniaturisation, 50% for each 10 levels (as on a ship). Note Planetology & Propulsion tech has no impact (free power!) and space is not a concern (unlike on a ship).
4. Base cost at game start is 283 BC - Slab 120, Nuclear Missiles 27, DS1 75 & BC1 61.
5. Bases are upgraded automatically as soon as you discover new technology used by them. You pay for the upgrade after it has been fitted before new Shield or new bases. Savings by miniaturisation are credited against future upgrade.
6. Bases are very good value costing less than an equivalent large ship and are constantly upgraded.
7. Bases maintenance cost is 2% and will generally rise since the upgrades are more costly than the miniaturisation savings.

After some limited testing my guesstimates are:
1. All true.
2. Broadly true for BC, DS & single-shot missiles. Armour costs are about 40% while low ECM is near 60% but the higher the ECM the higher the percentage, rising steeply for top end. My BCx table almost matches, my DSx table is 2-3 BC cheaper each item, my Missile table has a few close to OSG but Nuclear, Hyper-V & Stinger are much costlier and Scatter-Pack do not affect cost. My ECMx table starts close to OSG for low ECM but rises exponentially.
3. True but for ships base miniaturisation begins at an item's base discovery tech level. For bases, I believe, miniaturisation begins at tech level 1 for every item (see later).
4. Cost at game start is 255 BC - Slab 81, Nuclear Missiles 40, DS1 73, BC1 61.
5. True but UPGRD sign in DEF is easily missed. Also miniaturisation actually causes upgrade costs rather than being a credit against them! (see later)
6. True.
7. False, maintenance decreases since miniaturisation generally reduces more than upgrades increase - the main exception is ECM since you start with none so first ECMx will most likely increase base costs, significantly if very early (see later).

Missile Base Miniaturisation
So if base item costs represent the cost at the base discovery tech level you can understand ship item's miniaturisation beginning at that level so why does missile base item miniaturisation begin at tech level 1 (my theory) for all items? Well it could be a bug or it could be by design or an update.
Consider a large ship at game start with BC1 costing 100 BC (ignore engine cost and space since not used for MB). If your next BC is BC4 with computer tech level 15 then new ships can use either full cost BC4 at 160 or miniaturised BC1 at cost 38. Now if the same miniaturisation applied to missile bases, even taking into account their 60% cost compared to ships, there would be an upgrade fee of about 75 BC per missile base! And all upgrades must be paid before you can build/upgrade shields or build new bases. So a planet with a modest 20 bases would have to pay 1,500 upgrade before any Shield or extra bases it may be desperate for and consider multiple tech hits together in MB tech, this could be a huge burden (nice to have upgrades for free but onerous to pay before increasing defence). The MB upgrade from BC1 to BC4 would actually cost about 14 per base from TL=1 to TL=15.
Of course with ships you have a choice whether to use your latest and greatest or wait until increasing tech reduces cost (& space on ship), with missile bases you have no choice - you always get the latest. This could be a reason for a different approach, although they could just have reduced the base costs of higher MB tech instead. Note this suspected miniaturisation from TL=1 is the main reason why missile base cost reduces over time instead of increasing as stated in OSG so it could be a bug. If it is a bug then this is a significant change to resolve with MB costs & upgrades becoming a major issue, for example with TLs=14,15,10,x,x,11 with Hyper-X, DS3, BC3, ECM3 a MB costs about 190 but would be over 320 with ship-like miniaturisation, not to mention the upgrades from cheaper MB builds done with lower tech.

Missile Base Upgrade
Consider game start 2300 with you having one missile base already, you set to discover BC2 in 1 turn and an enemy scout to visit in 2 turns (to check if you are upgraded). How does the missile base cost change and do you need an upgrade (after all I have said costs generally go down).
2300 MB costs 255
ibt discover BC2
2301 MB costs 240
ibt scout visits and missile base already has BC2
2302 MB cost now showing UPGRD for 10 per base then new cost of 250
It seems strange that you pay 255 for a MB then have to pay 10 to upgrade it to a MB worth 250 but the game counts the effect of miniaturisation first (reducing existing BC1 base from 255 to 240 at TL=5) before calculating upgrade costs for new tech (BC2 base 250 at TL=5). Similarly DS2 (if first tech) makes MB 252 with upgrade of 11 and Hyper-V Missiles makes MB 256 with upgrade of 9. Note you will frequently not see UPGRD since it will be deducted from any partially built base if any, it does not show for first year due when you may still pay it or if you pay more than the upgrade the game will simply show the turns to next MB.
MB upgrade costs kept in savefile at PLANET + x'62' - previously unmapped.
You only pay UPGRD for BCx, DSx & single-shot missiles. You do not pay upgrade for Armour or ECMx. You do not pay any extra for Scatter-Pack missiles - MB cost is based on best single-shot missile.

Missile Base ECM conundrum
ECMx is a unique tech on MB since you do not start the game with any (basic armour is zero cost but armour is cheap and more than paid for by construction miniaturisation). There are no upgrade costs when you acquire it but the first ECM will push up costs eg. if ECM1 is your first discovery the MB cost rises from 255 to 309. One odd thing is my calculated costs for ECMx rise exponentially so ECM1 is 63, ECM2 71 but ECM10 is 425 +/- 50. It could be that MB miniaturisation works differently on ECMx or the MB ECMx cost is worked out differently from other items (or it could be my mistake!).
Another odd thing about ECM (a bug?) is that the game will only fit your latest ECM if your computer tech level is higher than the base discovery level for that ECM. Normally your tech level will be at least your highest tech in field but if you tech jump (Artifact planet discovery, tech exchange, steal or plunder beyond current tech tier) then your tech level can be lower than your latest tech - if this latest is ECMx the game will not fit them to your missile bases. This could be good (temporarily) reducing cost if you are building bases but bad if you are trying to defend with MB's without your latest ECMx tech.

Oddities
1. For cheap early MB's construction tech gives best return (Slab is most expensive item) until first ECMx when computer tech is more efficient at reducing cost. Armour upgrades use construction miniaturisation also but armour is fairly cheap. Of course avoid any early ECMx if possible/desirable because this pushes up cost notably and you will not pay any upgrade cost on existing bases when you discover ECMx later (do not leave it too late!).
2. For cheap Scatter-Pack MB's avoid single-shot missile upgrades so you pay the cost of miniaturised nuclear missiles (not likely to be practical).
3. Many players have reported games where MB's were not automatically upgraded to the latest tech. I could not discover any evidence of this or how this might happen in my limited tests (any repeatable savegames anyone?). It has been recommended you trickle feed DEF for MB upgrades at key planets - even if this is not needed for new tech, it is still useful to avoid upgrade costs building up & delaying Shields or new MB's when you need them quick.

[Vanshilar]

Yeah I've always felt that bases were really expensive early on and throwaway cheap toward the end. Their expense early on is compounded by your colony's low production, especially when it's your outer colonies that are more likely to have computer ships over them (since they're closer) yet more likely to have low production since they're newer. Also, early on, when people are running around with small and medium ships, a single base is somewhat overkill.

So even though MoO is supposedly defensively-oriented early to mid-game, switching to offensively-oriented at the late game (to force a win or loss), I find that in the very early game when everyone's grabbing territory, it's still somewhat offensively-oriented; it's better to invest in ships that can defend your colonies as you move outward so that the colonies can focus on getting built up rather than nuking their own production.

Funny that having ECM early makes the bases more expensive. I guess this is somewhat like how getting robotics 3 early on actually hurts you, since it makes all of your factories more expensive when you're still trying to build them up.

[Zeraan]

I'm working on adding missile bases in my game. I'm going to just follow what OSG says, then tweak it later to match MoO 1's actual mechanisms.

So for better balancing, should the cost for missile base be low, then increase in price as more are built? For example, first missile base is 50, then next one is 60, and third one is 70, and so forth, regardless of minitaurizations. So early planets don't suffer as much, and it limits the amount of missile bases you can have on a planet due to its increasing cost.

[toddestan]

I'm working on adding missile bases in my game. I'm going to just follow what OSG says, then tweak it later to match MoO 1's actual mechanisms.

So for better balancing, should the cost for missile base be low, then increase in price as more are built? For example, first missile base is 50, then next one is 60, and third one is 70, and so forth, regardless of minitaurizations. So early planets don't suffer as much, and it limits the amount of missile bases you can have on a planet due to its increasing cost.

If I was to do it, I would probably make the first missile base (and only the first) be built in stages. For example, the MOO system has three missile tubes with upgraded speed and range. So, the stages could go something like this:

Stage 1 - 1 missile tube
Stage 2 - 1 missile tube with upgraded speed & range
Stage 3 - 2 missile tubes with upgraded speed & range + shielding
Stage 4 - full missile base

After the first missile base, any additional bases must be paid for and built in full. This would allow for the player to get something cheap (but weak) up on new planets fairly quickly, but still keep things relatively simple.

[timmy827]

Oddities

3. Many players have reported games where MB's were not automatically upgraded to the latest tech. I could not discover any evidence of this or how this might happen in my limited tests (any repeatable savegames anyone?). It has been recommended you trickle feed DEF for MB upgrades at key planets - even if this is not needed for new tech, it is still useful to avoid upgrade costs building up & delaying Shields or new MB's when you need them quick.

Believe this game has at least one example of upgrades not working. Appears to be tied to 'jumping' a tech tier. Here my own research is currently on Class IV shields, but I've looted Class V in an invasion already. Kronos is adding many bases, however on the next battle they all still have only Class II shields installed.

Not totally sure about the logic. I reloaded and played a few turns a few times from this save to test; in one I got class 3 shields stolen from the Klackons by spies after a turn or two, before my research on class IV finished. The next turn had a battle at another planet and the bases had upgraded all the way to shield V.

Yes, this was an attempt at a shadow of Imperium 38. Yes, being at war with most of the galaxy meant it didn't go well

[sargon0]

Oddities

3. Many players have reported games where MB's were not automatically upgraded to the latest tech. I could not discover any evidence of this or how this might happen in my limited tests (any repeatable savegames anyone?). It has been recommended you trickle feed DEF for MB upgrades at key planets - even if this is not needed for new tech, it is still useful to avoid upgrade costs building up & delaying Shields or new MB's when you need them quick.

Believe this game has at least one example of upgrades not working. Appears to be tied to 'jumping' a tech tier. Here my own research is currently on Class IV shields, but I've looted Class V in an invasion already. Kronos is adding many bases, however on the next battle they all still have only Class II shields installed.

Not totally sure about the logic. I reloaded and played a few turns a few times from this save to test; in one I got class 3 shields stolen from the Klackons by spies after a turn or two, before my research on class IV finished. The next turn had a battle at another planet and the bases had upgraded all the way to shield V.

Yes, this was an attempt at a shadow of Imperium 38. Yes, being at war with most of the galaxy meant it didn't go well

Thanks Timmy, seems a perfect example and I think I can see why your bases cannot use the latest tech.

As you say, it is because of a tech jump (missing a tier) or more specifically the fact that your tech level is lower than your latest tech in field because of the tech jump. I mentioned this feature above for ECM but it appears to apply to other Missile Base tech. Your Missile base tech in savefile is DS2 (plus BC3 & Mercs), your known FF tech is DS1, DS2, PDS & DS5 (looted) so your FF tech level is 19, one below tech level of DS5. When you stole DS3 you still have tech jump for DS5 but now your extra tech in lower field means your FF tech level becomes 20 so you can use DS5!

Personally I can accept that you cannot use tech you have acquired from other than research (steal, exchange, loot, artefact find) that is beyond your current tech level just interesting the game restricts this limitation to missile base upgrades but not to say new ship builds - I suppose you have the plans so can build them but modifying existing tech is more complicated! Of course after the tech jump you may research a tech beyond your current level so it may pay to back-track and pick up cheap techs to advance tech level to ensure you can use your latest tech in field for your missile bases.

I wonder if this covers all the cases players report when missile bases do not use the latest tech.

[RefSteel]

So that' what causes it! Great job isolating and investigating this one!

I wonder if this covers all the cases players report when missile bases do not use the latest tech.

It's certainly possible; I know of no counter-examples at least, and the one case of a non-upgraded missile base of which I have a clear memory definitely matched what you describe. (Of course I didn't recognize that having skipped a tier was relevant to the problem....)