[Spoiler] RB Pitboss #2 - Shaka of Rome

[Whosit]

We want war dammit, no more buildings:duel:

Just kidding, do what you think is best for your civ...

Well, I kind of need an army first. One Praetorian does not a strike-force make. Anyway, as I mentioned, even taking the time for the Granary won't throw my schedule off much. I should have all the force I need assembled by Turn 84 at the latest. I've even figured out the most expedient way to pull in a pair of Workers to lay down the roads I'll need. I'm hoping, if things go as planned, to keep my forces out of Korea's line of sight, yet enter their territory on the turn I declare. I'll have to figure out how to defend my Workers, though . . . .

I think that Korea currently has 3-4 Archers and maybe a Chariot (in addition to 3 Warriors which don't really count). Assuming that the Archers will have City Garrison, full Fortification bonuses, and at least 20% cultural defenses . . . they may prove a match for my Praetorians . . . well, until I give 'em City Raider. The good news is: If Korea focuses on an Archer army, I probably won't have to fear much in the way of a counter-attack.

Anyway, I've come across Indian territory. Look at this!



That borders on hardly being fair. Double river valley, irrigate Rice (Carida's rice isn't irrigated, *sniff*) and with Lizzy as the leader, the Financial trait. There's a good chance that most of the tiles in that city's BFC are adjacent to the river. If I were them, I'd build a cottage on every single tile . . . . *sigh* I really fear that I won't be able to keep up in the technology race. At least I'm #1 in power right now . . .

The closest thing that I have is this:



But it's kinda out there and not as good as India's spot (and I'm not Financial). One thing to note: The spot north, across the sea. If I settle on the inland isle, I will probably settle 1NW of the Fish. Or 1 NW of the clam, perhaps. No, 1 NW of the Fish, for sure. With a double sea-food "start," and a Work Boat or two from Kuat, I imagine I can enact my plan to settle a starter town, and have it whip out everything I need to expand my colony. Well, until I whip it into uselessness, anyway. Hopefully there will be some hills or hammer tiles to work while I wait for the Whip Anger to wear off. But I wanna test my theory to see if this can work.

[BobRoberts]

1 NE would get 3 seafood resources with border pop?

Whippy-Drafty-Gasmic?

If there's a hill or two and the globe, then that would be really quite sick?

[Whosit]

1 NE would get 3 seafood resources with border pop?

Whippy-Drafty-Gasmic?

If there's a hill or two and the globe, then that would be really quite sick?

Hmm, that's a possibility. There are indeed a few hills near that spot. I dunno how soon I'll be able to get out there, though.

My projections indicate that I'll probably bankrupt myself with expansion and my army.

[Jabah]

You do have your grassland-cottage river sites, they are just called Wonsan & Pyongyan (and Silk filler)

[Whosit]

You do have your grassland-cottage river sites, they are just called Wonsan & Pyongyan (and Silk filler)

Eh heh heh, yes, I suppose so. Perhaps the problem in my "sim" was that I settled on the central island ASAP, so that would have stuck me with high maintenance with little return. I suppose the wiser move would be to capture/reSettle the Korean cities, found my Filler, and build cottages everywhere. And hope that can fund further expansion.

Anyway, semi-eventful round, by which I mean, not terribly eventful. But here i's a picture of your DOOM!!



I also spied this:



It must have come from Seoul, but I'm not really sure when it was produced. Probably 3 turns ago, so maybe they did some production sleight of hand and chopped it out, although the numbers do not support this so far as I can tell.

Seoul is definitely on Settler. I expect them to whip it this turn, but maybe they won't. They can't 2-pop whip 25 hammers into an Archer (25 hammers), so I figure that's what they will do. The only logical place for them to go is the Copper site up north. If they don't do that . . . . Well, I have no idea. If they do go for Copper, I may have to declare early and use a strike force to take it out. Too bad that Kuat's borders won't pop nearly early enough to grab that Copper. Anyway, 4 Praetorians can probably burn the city down if I move quickly.

Anyway, I laid down some signs to mark places I may like to settle if I ever get the chance.

Here's the NorthWest, or the Inner Rim, I guess:



I need to clear more fog to see exactly what I'd be getting there, but this mostly just marks the maximum extent I would desire to push out. I don't want to cramp the HRE, and there's a good chance that I'll be beaten to most of these places. I'd still like that little northern river nook, though.

The SouthWest, or the other part of the Inner Rim:



I've decided that Seoul would make a decent GP Farm. Wheat and Clams, and some production to build things like Libraries and Markets. I can farm grassland if necessary. That be the plan, anyway.

The NorthEast, which may also be the outer edge of the Inner Rim:



I may go with that Lurker suggestion for the Globe site. It could grab up to 1 Fish, 2 Clams, and irrigated Rice, so that's an awful lot of food. I have Cog out on patrol to reveal that strip of black tiles I never scouted before so I can get a better idea of what's there. If the fate of my Empire rests on keeping an extra Warrior at home, I am in trouble.

And the Outer Rim:



Again, this is more or less the maximum distance I intend to extend my reach. I want to settle the Zulu's original site, and I want those Spices, because that is the only place for Kessel to be! I swear to Palpatine that I will fight the Interregnum for those spices. It would be risky and expensive, but I may try the ol' "settle out then in" technique to claim this territory. Settling the Globe site isn't too bad, but the Zulu and Kessel sites will be hard to defend, logistically. Still, I think that if the Rebels support me, I can dissuade the Interregnum from taking any foolish actions.

The main problem is that a lot of that land isn't bad, but it's just not great. It needs more rivers! My overall settlement plan to settle fairly densely. So far, all my cities are 3 tiles away from the nearest other city. I may let up on that a bit, but I want to follow the Sullla doctrine here and avoid wasting tiles if I can.

Also, got a reply from the Rebels/Ottomans last night. Here it is, in all its texty glory:

Dear Whosit,

> I hope the delay in communication hasn't caused any alarm. I have been
> occupied by many things these last few days, and I was not under the
> impression that you were expecting a hasty response to your last message.
> That said, I am writing both to respond to some of the items from the last
> message and simply to keep communications open. I am sure that we will
> always have business to discuss, but sometimes I have difficulty thinking of
> things to say if nothing seems pressing.

Not at all. As you say there wasn't anything pressing that required a response.

> I am still gathering information on the lay of the lands and I am hope that
> in the near future I can afford to send out military units strong enough to
> survive Barbarian attacks. In any case, I am beginning to believe that naval
> power will not be and insignificant factor in this world. There is an ocean
> surrounding the main landmass (with islands beyond that which I have not yet
> been able to explore) and a landmass in the center of the inland sea. I
> would very much like to explore that central landmass. I suspect, and hope,
> that it contains valuable resources not found elsewhere. Masonry and Writing
> are the next critical techs for me, but Sailing may be a wise choice before
> I head into Aesthetics because it will allow me to start scouting that
> region.

We don't have much information regarding anything but the main
landmass but have seen the islands and the center landmass you refer
to. Your point about the central landmass containing some resources
not found on the mainland is very intriguing. However given our
current situation I doubt we will be in a position to attempt to
settle it any time soon. We are soon to complete Horseback Riding and
will begin our final assault on the Byzantine Empire at that point. We
will most likely proceed into sailing after that to so as to secure
some foreign trade routes with our friends.

> I feel that controlling the central sea could be important. Even if there
> are few resources on that island, strategic control of that region could be
> very valuable. I was wondering if you thought making a concerted effort to
> settle that region would be worthwhile. While it would divert resources from
> the effort to settle the mainland, I am trying to devise a low-cost,
> low-impact plan to settle the central island. Clearly, I do not want to
> jeopardize my chances of taking as much land as possible. In fact, I may
> have more to lose because I have more available land to fill. Either way, I
> figure that we would both benefit by trying to carve a section out for
> ourselves relatively early. My scouting has indicated that the central sea
> is rich in seafood. Perhaps a city settled in a food-rich location, with a
> work boat provided by an existing city, could whip out the soldiers,
> workers, and even other Settlers required for settling the rest of the
> island with the second city following the same plan. If that effort could be
> made to be self-sustaining, it would reduce the amount of resources the
> mainland must divert. Of course, this is all hypothetical right now. We
> would still require sailing and exploration of those lands.

As mentioned above our near future doesn't look bright for being able
to settle this land though your proposal is certainly intriguing
enough to warrant some merit. You do have us outscouted here though as
we have minimal knowledge of the "internal" coast and what it holds.

> I am also wondering what your impressions of the other civilizations are. I
> will share some of my thoughts.
>
> Byzantium: I have not met them, but as I do not believe that they are long
> for this world, I don't plan to involve myself with them.

I don't think it should be hard to determine how we feel about them!

> IKZ Interregnum: Aside from having a name that indicates anarchy, I have had
> fairly little contact with them. Actually, now that I check, I don't think
> that we've exchanged more than the casual greeting. I hope to stay on
> peaceful terms with them, but I half expect that our two empires may try to
> take a bite out of them at a later date.

We have had friendly communications with them and secured an NAP with
them since we would be going to war on our other flank, however even
given the amount of land they had available to the south they chose to
settle aggressively towards us while landing Hinduism in that city.
There settling was only less aggressive than Byzantium's as they
negotiated the spot with us but we could not convince them to head in
the other direction while we gained more insight into the territory.
As such we expect at some point down the road, once our lands have
been divided up peacefully (or maybe before if the opportunity arises)
we shall indeed fight the Inca and will most certainly wish to
coordinate with you in that respect.

> Korea: Relations are still tense at best. I have not communicated with them
> since the incident. They have accelerated the production of their army, so
> they are probably expecting an attack. Whether Archers can stand up to
> Praetorians, I do not know. Regardless, I trust that you will not
> communicate that piece of information to them.

I doubt archers will hold long against the power of aggressive
praetorians! Hail Cesaer! Errr...Emperor!

> Holy Roman Empire: I am hoping to befriend them. There is a chance that they
> will be my future neighbors, so I might as well get an early start. I hope
> that you will play nice with them, as well.

We have the same intention towards the HRE in that we also wish to
befriend them and remain peaceful.

> India: Communication with them has been friendly. Considering who is leading
> India, I imagine that they are the favorites for this game, but who knows. I
> would rather be on their good side than their bad by default.

We currently have a short term NAP with India, however their
communications with us appear to have been carefully calculated. Given
their leaders this shouldn't come as quite a surprise but we believe
they are currently attempting to find a way to aid the Byzantines in
the war against us and to provide them copper. Should this arise it
would be unforgiveable. Given our timeframes I don't believe it will
but that they are even attempting it is annoying in itself.

> Greece: I haven't found their homeland, I recall have fairly neutral
> dealings with them.

We are quite friendly with them and believe we'll have a great
relationship down the road.

> Romali: Made some friendly communications with them. Nothing extensive.

Same as us. Nothing beyond the initial greetings really.

> Overall, fairly neutral with most other civilizations. I have gotten the
> impression that many are having border issues with their neighbors. Aside
> from my dealings with you, the Ottomans/Rebel Alliance, there have not been
> any overt efforts to make long-term partnerships yet. I imagine that most
> are simply concerned with expansion at this point. And with tech trading
> disabled, I wonder if there is slightly less incentive for cooperation (I do
> not know how many others have come up with your interesting proposal on tech
> paths, or if you have shared the idea with others).

I must admit the tech proposal path is all Kalin's idea. Nobody has
mentioned to us as far as I know.

> Hopefully between the two of us we can get a good bead on our other
> opponents. The Interregnum has been consistently lagging in score, so I
> wonder if that is an indication of their skill or not. The Indians have
> remained score leaders, or at least very high. The Empire is currently
> enjoying a top position, and hopefully I can make that last.

Completely agree, though it is probably too much to read into
anybody's score at this point.

Best Wishes,
- Hide quoted text -

Athlete for A/K
Ottomans

In the future, I may edit out the parts where they just repost my own message. Takes up a lot of space.

Anyway, I'll draft a response later today. The item of greatest concern is that India may try to aid Byzantium. If the Rebels only have mounted units, then Spearmen will really ruin their day. I can't trade with them until one of us has Sailing, otherwise I'd gift them my own source of Copper (since I don't really need it right now).

I'll also keep in mind that I should be nice to Greece, since they may become an ally of my ally.

I wonder how quickly others will try and settle the central island. I plan to tech Masonry, Writing, Sailing and at least drop off an Axeman or something to do some scouting. It may be a better idea to secure the mainland first, or at least significant parts of it, before settling the central island. Still, I may be able to make a mostly self-sufficient colony if I plan correctly. It's going to be costly, though.

[Whosit]

Oh, and just got a response from Kalin. I think that most of their letters are not jointly drafted. This also explains why I tend to get short messages where they say they got my letter. I decided to start returning the favor, since it sounds like it would make Kalin happy.

Dear Whosit,

I saw Athlete sent you already a message but I also wanted to add my 2 cents.

Regarding the delay in communication, there's definitely no problem
for us, as we are also very busy. We would like to have some
understanding with you however. Sometimes, when one party doesn't
answer promptly the other may start to worry and a relationship may
break because of it. Let's not let this happen to us. We should
tolerate delays in answering and whenever possible send a quick ack on
the message.

Thank you for sharing the information about the central island. We
were only vaguely aware of it, but you made a great point about the
strategic importance of this island. We are definitely interested in
sharing the island with you if possible. We don't yet have a port city
on that side however, but we have one planned. It will take some time
until we can get it up and running, as Athlete said, but the other
civs will most likely have a similar problem. Again, this was a great
insight. We are grateful for it and hope we'll be able to take
advantage of it together!

We would also like to tell you a piece of information that you may
find useful: we noticed that the map wraps around not only E-W, but
also N-S! We may be closer to each other than we thought. This is a
good thing as we want to have our friends close if possible so that
we can help each other. Sailing therefore becomes even more important
now. Keep this to yourself of course

On the subject of Incas, I'd like to emphasize again that it will make
most sense for both us to collaborate against them. Until then
however, I suggest we stay in good terms as there's no need to tip
them off. I am thinking about making some more formal pact in that
respect if you are interested.

Regarding Korea: everything you said is of course confidential. We are
a bit in a delicate position there, and I was afraid that we would be
caught in a catch-22 situation where we would end up being hated by
both of you I am glad that we were able to go over that and become
good friends.

Regarding HRE: we had good contact with them and we are also hoping to
befriend them, as we are quite far (not clear how far with the
wrap-around) and it makes sense for both of us. I think it's a
wonderful idea for you to collaborate with them! We don't want you to
be caught between two enemies. We would even suggest you start
discussions on a land partition with them and a NAP. Here's a piece of
(unsolicited) advice If you want to make a NAP, tie it to the land
partition: you don't want to make a NAP, only to see an unescorted
settler making a city where you wanted to make it, and be able to do
nothing about it because of the NAP.

Regarding India: I think your instinct is correct that they are
favorites in this game: not only their leaders are very competent, but
their development so far backs it up. They are first in food and GNP
and doing very good in production. We would suggest not helping them
at all if possible. We are even thinking of creating a subtle pact
against them, where the other civs would stay neutral and not help
them or even more We definitely don't want them to reach a position
where they become unstoppable. However, we think it's a good idea to
keep good relations, at least on the surface. What do you think about
this?

Regarding Greece: We do have good relations with them and we are
thinking about them as a partner for the research sharing and
coordinating plan. With 3 or 4 civs that plan can yield even greater
benefits for us all. We don't want to get too many people into it
however. Would you have anything against trying to set up something
like this with them?

We have shared the research idea only with Greece but they thought it
was fairly marginal. I think the benefits will add up, particularly
with the 3 of us collaborating. For what is worth, I believe that
long-term collaboration on several levels will be the key to this
game.

Let's stay in touch and keep each other updated as much as possible,
Kalin of the Ottomans for Team A/K

[Whosit]

OK, finally finished my message to the Ottomans. I don't think that I'll really be comfortable talking about things until Korea is out of the picture. Despite my best intentions to leave the subject alone, I almost always bring it up. On the other hand, they mentioned it first this time.

Edit: Either way, gotta love my inescapable paranoid delusions . . . .

Dear Athlete and Kalin,

You challenge me by giving me two letters to respond to. Nevertheless, I think that we are all on the same wavelength, so it shouldn't be too difficult.

You are both right to say that settling the central island is not going to happen in the near future. I know that the Empire will most likely need to develop a stable financial core before attempting overseas expansion. Nonetheless, one of my first priorities after researching Sailing will be to scout out that region. I already have a city on the inner coast--Kuat--and it has a bright future as a heavy-production city (the name is no coincidence). It should be able to produce Galleys in short order, although I estimate that I am fifteen-to-twenty turns away from completing Sailing.

Kalin, thank you for pointing out the world wrap. It is actually something that I have been aware of for quite some time. I never mentioned it because I believed that it was known by everyone else as well, but I see that may not be the case. Perhaps we can use this to our advantage, but we should not assume that it is secret knowledge. (I learned about the toroidal world wrap when I made a world builder replica of the world and the city maintenance fees weren't adding up right.)

I also agree that this news makes Sailing more valuable, although I think that we will have more luck using the inner sea rather than the great ocean, at least early on. I am not certain that Galleys will be able to find safe routes across the great sea. On the other hand, If we are move more quickly than the Inca, we may be able to secure a route on the inner sea.

I am still gathering information on the locations of other civilizations. I do not think that I have found anyone else who already has a port on the inner sea, but I am not certain. Once we reach the point that colonization appears feasible, I think that we may want to focus on the eastern parts of the central island in an attempt to shut the Inca out completely. We will also want to discuss partitioning of the land, but that will of course wait until the area has been scouted and we are both actually in a position to Settle.

At the risk of getting ahead of myself, if we decide that the Greeks and/or the Holy Roman Empire are trustworthy, we may want to include them in the settlement plan. The more allies we have to divide up the central island, the better the chance to keep out the undesireables. Incidentally, I have no problem with including the Greeks in an Alliance. As I mentioned before, I think that your plan to minimize first-time research costs will yield some benefits, although it will be difficult to arrange when many civilizations desire or need the same tech immediately. I won't speak of this to Greece for now, but when you are convinced that they are solidly on your, dare I say "our," side, three-way talks may be a good idea.

Based on Athlete's suspicions, it is disconcerting that India may be trying to assist Byzantium. I cannot imagine that they believe they can save Byzantium, but they most likely see value in tying up the Alliance in a prolonged war. I suppose I will have to be wary in case they attempt to assist Korea in the future . . . .

Speaking of the Indians, I am going to attempt to pass through their territory. Hopefully they will grant me a right of passage. One thing I did spy, however, was their city of Antietam. Keeping in mind that they have the Financial trait, this city has a river running on both sides of it. All the tiles that I saw were grasslands (or grassland hills) and a Rice resource. I do not know if that is indicative of their entire territory, but there is a great risk that they will be able to develop a monstrous financial base. If I were them, I would build a cottage on every single tile.

Now, regarding the Koreans. I am a bit curious about this "catch-22" situation that you mentioned, Kalin. I understand that you do not want to play both sides, something you mentioned in a previous message, but I was wondering if you would be willing to clarify your position. Specifically, is this a concern you once had, or still do? And would I be correct to assume that, in the event of armed conflict between Korean and the Empire, the Ottoman's official stance would be neutral? I do trust you, but as a wise man named Tarkin once said: "I am taking an awful risk here" each time I mention my intentions towards Korea.

In any case, there is one more thing that I would like to ask: Does the Ottoman Alliance currently possess Copper? I have been wondering if your choice to pursue Horseback Riding was one of preference or necessity. If we are able to get a trade route connection, I will be able to loan your Copper if you require it, though I imagine that the war may be over by that point. Still, it is an open offer.

On a final note, we should move cautiously as we form alliances. We've named half of the competition (you, me, the HRE, and the Greeks). If things work out, and our cooperation becomes too overt, there's a good chance the remaining civilizations will create an alliance, perhaps supporting India. I have no idea how we can diplomatically isolate Sullla and Speaker, but if either of us sees an opportunity to do so, we should take it.

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

P.S.: I spent enough time working on this letter that a new turn has started. Many scores have jumped! I know that in the case of India, they spent a turn moving before settling, so some of that is probably from expanded borders, but I'm not sure how much of it is. I have read enough of Sullla's work to know that he is a master at increasing his score, although I strongly doubt that he is attempting to boost his score for its own sake at this point in the game. I realize that it is not wise to read too much into scores, but it can still be a useful tool.

And a brief message asking the Indians for Open Borders. I suppose it's not really worth posting, but I have the window open, so . . . .

Dear Speaker and Sullla,

I hope that this new year finds you both well. As you have no doubt noticed, Bib Fortuna has reached the edge of your territory. I was hoping that you would see fit to grant me passage through. I will take the most direct route through and only wish to contact the remaining civilizations. Is this acceptable to you?

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

I played most of my turn, but didn't end things. Bib still has a movement point left, and I'll have to dial back my science spending. I'm losing money, and I can't remember if that was in my testing or not. Eh. But I'm more or less on schedule.

I saw that P'yongyang has finished its Worker. I think that gives Korea 4 of them now.

Thannos still needs a couple more turns to heal before he heads out again. Nothing interesting discovered around the Rice, either.

[Whosit]

*Sigh* Well, I figured out my financial issue. In the real game, city maintenance is 1 point higher than in my test game due to slightly higher distance costs across the board. Not sure what the difference is this time. I know there was originally a problem due to the world-wrap issue. Does it factor in total number of land tiles vs. water tiles? I tried adding a bunch more land to the world builder map, but to no avail. Dunno.

Anyway, turned science down to 0% and I'm making a pitiful 9 gpt. But it'll be enough to finish off Masonry and I'll be on schedule with my test game, for what it's worth. I might actually be able to get it a turn earlier than predicted. We'll see.

I briefly chatted with Sullla this morning. He said that he and Speaker were "thinking about" my request for Open Borders. I kind of wonder if they're just stalling at this point. Well, there's still plenty of time on the timer, so I'll wait a while longer. Bib Fortuna still has a movement point left, so I'd rather hold out for the Open Borders right now.

P'yongyang finished the Worker (1 hammer overflow) and Seoul 1-pop whipped the Settler (8 hammer overflow). I think that Wonsan is working on either a Barracks or a Granary. I'm going to guess a Granary. Seoul doesn't have a Granary yet, but it has a lot of food. Heh. Well, let 'em whip their towns. I will be interested to see where the new guy goes . . . .

By the way, do any lurkers know what may cause scores to fluctuate by 2 points? I know that 1 pop = 3 points, but I'm not sure what 2 means.

[Whosit]

OK, all kinds of "fun" surprises this round.

First, I'm about 99% certain that Sullla and Speaker are jerking my chain. Or whatever the appropriate expression is. They've had more than 12 hours to "consult" with each other on whether or not to grant me Open Borders, and considering how often they check up on the game and how active they are in their thread, I'm going to figure that they're just blowing me off. I'd love to say that "my vengeance shall be swift and deadly," but that would be a waste of hot air at this point. Perhaps ever. We'll see.

Second big surprise: I was wrong about what Wonsan was building:



If I had actually bothered to keep track of their techs and stuff, I suppose I might have learned that they have Sailing. Probably not good for me. Will they settle on one of the islands in an effort to avoid destruction? Unless the islands have metal, they'd probably still want to go for the Copper . . . . My coasts may be in danger, but I'll manage as best I can.

Then . . . . The Oracle was constructed! Because India's score shot up this turn (I'm solidly in second place, and more than 20 points behind India), I was afraid that they built it. But oddly enough . . . .



Note that the only team that I have not contacted is Byzantium. Also, I am now second place in power. I am going to guess that they pulled Horseback Riding or maybe even Iron Working as their tech. Well, hmm, surely Kalin and Athlete would have cut off Byzantium's horses . . . . I dunno, but they probably got something nasty.

I'm going to let my pals know what's up, though I'm pretty certain that they'll figure it out soon enough. At least India didn't build it.

Otherwise, dull set.

[Whosit]

I'm sending team India what I hope is a politely angry letter. If there is no response before the timer ticks down, I'm just going to assume that they are stalling me and wasting my time. Wait, they're probably already doing that. Oh well.

I've looked it over a couple times, and I don't think that it needs further editing. It's too the point, and no reason to go on too long, I guess.

Dear Speaker and Sullla,

While I realize that being the ruler of a civilization leaves one with many things on his plate, I would like an answer to my request for Open Borders so that my Scout can pass through your territory. A brief chat with Sullla yesterday morning left me with the impression that you would get back to me fairly soon, but I have yet to receive an answer, whether it be "yes" or "no." I would very much appreciate a response before the next turn begins.

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

In the event that they deny me passage, or just ignore me, I'll have Bib Fortuna double back and fill in some of the blanks in this area. Thannis will start moving next turn. He's not quite healed, but the Inca borders are starting to expand, and I don't want to get stuck on the wrong side.