Erebus in the Balance Update

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Erebus in the Balance Update

Erebus in the Balance is a major improvement over the original Fall from Heaven mod, and offers a significant improvement over the original in terms of balance and gameplay, and is more conducive to the multiplayer style we practice here. Unfortunately, the mod has been in hiatus for a significant amount of time, largely because of Sareln's real life circumstances. Thus I find it reasonable to work off the assumption that we will not see Erebus in the Balance v10 in, at the very least the near future. And while I think Erebus in the Balance is probably the best multiplayer version of FFH out there, there remain significant balance issues.


For instance, Vollanna's overpoweredness had never come up as an issue before EitB23 and other more indepth issues have surfaced in recent times, such as the overall weakness of Sheaim as a civ, the remaining dominance of the Tower of Mastery as the easiest victory condition by far and the rising power of Basium, to name but a few. The strength and balance of the civilisations in a general sense needs work. Specifically, there are a number of civs that are notably below average in the mod, personally I consider the Sheaim, Khazad, Infernal, Grigori, Sidar and the Elohim amongst this number. This is probably the greatest weakness of the mod as it stands, although I don’t doubt there will be some controversy to this.


From what I have established whilst chatting with fellow members, and seeing the banlists that come game after game, these issues are real and apparent, and the enthusiasm for FFH in our community does not seem to have reduced drastically, with a new PBEM every 2 months or so.


I would like to see a greater effort on working on ironing out balancing issues within the mod as it stands, and to reestablish a ongoing evaluation of the balance of the mod, with discussions cropping up as issues are uncovered and exploited from game to game. A good model for this can be seen in the recent success of RBmod, with updates being released after (or just before) each game based off discussion emerging from the post-game discussions. I intend to preserve the vision of EitB as a mod for balance and limited change


On my own place in the mod; while I have some skill at coding, I am by no means a coding expert, and am not confident that I will be able to handle the python and deeper alterations of the mod. Thus, a lot of the alterations we can see here will be those low-hanging fruit, especially of the XML which I am confident I can execute. Hopefully, if more is required then those with the skill to do so will be able to come forward, if not then I will look into simpler alternatives.


For changes then, there is obviously one simple place to start - Sareln's current work on EitB v10. Below is his list of proposed and completed changes for EitB v10.

I'll add things to the list as we go.

(Red) - Abandoned
(Orange) - Proposed
(Lime) - Implemented

Crashes and Bugfixes:

• Crash: Nox Noctis Crash
  
• Crash: Somnium (holdover from MNAI - Looks like Tholal fixed it.)
  
• Bug: Thessalonica's Alignment (Good -> Neutral)
  
• Bug: Furia's Alignment (Evil -> Neutral)
  
• Bug: Make sure Freak Shows are castable correctly (unable to replicate)
  
• Bug: Build Culture Doublecounting
  
• Bug: Production Automation Doublecounting
  
• Bug: Remove Mary Morbus Event, as she is buildable
  
• Bug: Turn 1 Save Fix (Have the game count by turns instead of years)
  
• Bug: Ensure Hyborem's cities have demonic citizens.
  
• Bug: Match Grigori Tavern cost to the new Tavern cost
  
• Bug: Make sure higher tier Melee units can't get Nightmare bonus.
  
• Bug: Make sure worker captures don't generate slaves as well (two units for one combat)
  

Balance Changes & Features:

• AI Change: Merged Tholal's Pre-BUG AI (REV0694)
  
• AI Change: Merged Tholal's Post-BUG AI (REV1203, still Python and DLL merging left to do)
  
• New Game Option: Minimally Modified UI (Turns off most of BUG's features, on by default, use to force MP games onto the same BUG configuration)
  
• UI Change: Integrated RuffHi's BUG Dotmapper (Activate with Ctrl-X)
  
• New Game Option: Disable Non-structural Events (Split Events into "Core" and "NonCore" events; replaces "Disable Events")
  
• New XML Tag: bCoreEvent (for marking events that should not be disabled by the new game option)
  
• Unit Change: Boost Mud Golem Cost: 50H -> 75H (Same base cost as Worker)
  
• Unit Change: Puppets gain SPECIALUNIT_SPELL which means they are in the same class as floating eye, fireball, and meteor and do not benefit from SUMM (Summoner Balsareph Exponentiation Problems)
  
• UI Change: Update GPP counters to see fractional bonus from spirit mana (got this for free w/ Tholal's BUG merge
  
• Spell Change: Move Lich Spell from Malevolent Designs to Divine Essence
  
• Promotion Change: Hero promotion gets free upgrades (really only applies to Grigori Adventurers)
  
• Building Changes: Subtowers are Team Nationals (Alteration, Necromancy, Divination, Elementalism)
  
• Victory Changes: Tower of Mastery requires your team has built all 4 subtowers.
  
• Spell Change: Pillar of Fire available at Righteousness to Order High Priests and Chalid
  
• Unit Change: Druids lose Channeling III but keep their druid spells
  
• Unit Change: Beast of Agares requires Demon's Altar and Ashen Veil State Religion
  
• Demon's Altars are National Wonders
  
• Unit Change: Centaur Chargers cannot be upgraded to
  
• Promotion/Effect Change: Bless gives +15 Fire Resistance along with +1 Holy Strength
  

Last Updated: 12/14/2012
Posts Read and Considered: Through post #97 and the comments from the XXI post-op thread.

If possible, I will look at incorporating most, if not all of his intended changes into this update, and have already contacted him as to this. Obviously, those options that served as a roadblock to v10 being released – most notably, the optional activation of BUG – will have to be put aside for now.


Here are some specific areas that I feel need work:

• The Esus religion continues to feel significantly weaker then others, and I don’t believe it has seen any use in a MP game.
  
• The Summoner trait in general works out to be generally quite a bit worse than ARC for the arcane war route, while providing no economic advantages. I feel this is also a significant factor in the weakness of the Sheaim.

Khazad:
The issue currently is that their vault mechanic means that they start with a straight -1 happiness, and the trade-off of hoarding the necessary gold is not enough to compensate for this - most will choose to simply eat the nerf whilst behaving normally because of the economic cost of filling the vaults. The other advantages of the civ are decent, but have other trade-offs (no mages).

My proposed solution is to do away with the first vault entirely, but fiddling with the other thresholds to normalize it. This means that the default is -1 happiness (which balances to normal with the free gold resource), leaving them at no disadvantage from the mechanic, but the possibility of getting an advantage.

Thus instead of the current:

Empty: <50 gold per city
-1 happy
Low: 50-99 gold per city
-1 happy
Normal: 100-149 gold per city
No Effect
Stocked: 150-199 gold per city
+1 happy
Abundant: 200-299 gold per city
+10% hammers and +2 happy
Full: 300-499 gold per city
+25% hammers and +2 happy
Overflowing: >499 per city
+40% hammers, +3 happy, and +25% GPP

We would have the following:

Low: <50 gold per city
-1 happy
Normal: 50-99 gold per city
No Effect
Stocked: 100-199 gold per city
+1
Abundant: 200-299 gold per city
+10% hammers and +2 happy
Full: 300-499 gold gold per city
+25% hammers and +2 happy
Overflowing: >499 gold per city
+40% hammers, +3 happy, and +25% GPP

I have recently received another suggestion from Bobchillingworth and Ellimist on how to improve the Khazad:

Khazad have some major issues. They have some very strong units, but the vaults just make their civ very unappealing- at the same time, the vaults are very powerful if you manage to fill them, so you can't overdo it. What about:

* Palace has Enchantment mana instead of a Gold resource

* Palace gives -40% city number and distance costs (effectively 45 with starting Law mana)

* WS triples your current gold, no longer creates hills.

I think this is something we should consider along with losing the “Empty” vault if we don’t think it will be enough on its own.



Varn Gosam:
In the original FFH, Varn is SPI/CRE (ADA), which was changed to SPI/CHA (ADA) in EitB. Given the weakening of Adaptive leaders in general in the mod (the nerfing of Financial) and the fact that the strength of the Malakim in general largely lies in the power of their leader, I think that this change is unnecessary and should be reverted.

Proposal: Varn Gosam traits changed from SPI/CHA (ADA) -> SPI/CRE (ADA)



Summoner:
I believe Mardoc summarized the problem with SUM best here:

What I really mean is, Summoner isn't very valuable unless you're Keelyn. All it does is double your summons, if you have 2 turns between combat. It gives no benefit whatsoever to economy or buildings or anything but the value of mages once you have them. Arcane, on the other hand, doubles or more your mages (by making it much much easier to level adepts), and gives half price Mage Guilds on top.

I think I would usually rather any other trait besides Summoner. Excepting Barbarian, but that's meant as flavor malus, really, not a bonus.

Simply put, Summoner is an inferior trait to Arcane for fielding a summoning army in most circumstances, and also has no economic boon, whereas at least ARC gives faster Mage Guilds.

How to fix this?

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how best to approach this. I could increase its military viability with a movement or combat boost to summons, or make summons hang around longer and so on. Or I could give it something economic, like +3bpt or +5% research. What does everyone think is the best approach here?



Undercouncil and Overcouncil:
As it currently stands, the Councils are available at Deception and Honour respectively. Unfortunately, this means that the Agnostic leaders, Auric Ulvin and Cassiel, can’t ever join, which is a big nerf with the much more improved Councils.

Proposal: move both councils to Trade. Makes them appear a bit earlier in the game but worth it and not much of a change.



Infernal:
Infernal actually exists in two, almost completely different iterations, depending on how/why he is summoned. He can be summoned as a “Hyborem rush” where he is summoned by a fast teching civ, normally the Lanun, as fast as possible, with the intention to switch to Hyborem as soon as feasibly possible, to the detriment of even basic worker techs, and then just eating whoever you spawn next to with iron champions and Hyborem. See FFH5.

Alternatively, he can appear much later in the game, when one of the players decides to go for the Pact and summons Hyborem in the process. In this scenario, Hyborem is normally so weak compared to the developed empires around him as to die swiftly at the whim of his neighbours. See FFH8.

This exists because of the lack of granularity to Hyborems summoning, despite the wide variety of the period in which he can be summoned – Hyborem always appears with his Hero, two Champions, two longbowmen, three manes, two settlers, one worker and an imp. I intend to change this so that Hyborem gets extra units at the start depending on the average number of cities his opponents have at the time he is summoned.

(Just based off a random check at a middling civ in a game when Hyborem wasn’t rushed gives us Illios who had 10 cities at roughly the time he was summoned in FFH14. This change seems, if anything, too small and certainly not overpowering.)

Hyborem also has a problem in that it is almost impossible to grow his cities, and as a result, succeed economically, especially in multiplayer where humans do not throw away large stacks. I am looking into the possibility of allowing him to build manes for himself, but working out a balanced price is difficult. For now, I am going to increase the size of his cities on founding to Size 6, so that he won’t be stuck at low sizes for the rest of the game.

Proposal: As well as his current starting units, Hyborem receives a number of axes, manes and settlers (sans promotions) equal to half the average number of cities minus two (the amount he starts with normally) in the game. Infernal cities now start out with 6 population, not 3.



Fawns:
One of the biggest issues with Vollanna and the Svartalfar in general is the power of fawns in the mod currently. For the same price as hunters, they lose the city malus, gain a big combat boost in forest and don’t require any buildings.

Proposal: Increase the cost to 75h (from 60h).



Sheaim:
Currently the Sheaim suffer from significant issues. They have no particular mechanic to pursue that works well – their only option is Pyre Zombies, despite the obvious intention of focusing on the Arcane line. This is because their central feature, Planar gates are a flawed mechanic and almost always an inefficient way of getting units. This has been discussed to death, so I will not elaborate further, but suffice to say that the Gates are unreliable, inefficient and badly in need of buffing, especially as the units within are so interesting.

My proposal is a slew of changes; firstly, the Planar Gates cost is reduced to 250h, doubled with Summoner. This is to make it cheaper, especially for the currently weaker Tebryn/Os Gabella. Secondly, all units that can spawn are now buildable, with the appropriate buildings and at a reasonable price. This is to make it so that the player has much more control over what units they build and can really get the benefit from them. Of especial note is the ability to build Mobius Witches, which are mages with some extra spells. This should make the Gates a genuine advantage as they can build their special units, especially the mass produced mages. Finally, the spawn rate is increased to a third of the AC and the limits on number of units per Planar Gate removed.

Proposal: Planar gates are changed as follows:

• Planar Gate Doubled by Summoner.
  
• Planar Gate’s cost reduced from 300h -> 250h.
  
• Planar Gate’s spawn rate increased to roughly a third of the AC (5% 0->9, 10% 10->29, 13% 30->39, 17% 40->49, 20% 50->59, 23% 60->69, 27% 70->79, 30% 80->89, 33% 90-99, 40% 100)
  
• The following units are now buildable, at the bracketed costs and building: Revelers (Gambling House, 150h), Mobius Witch (Mage Guild, 150h), Chaos Marauder (Carnival, 50h), Manticore (Grove, 240h), Minotaur (Obsidian Gate, 240h), Tar Demon (Temple of Veil, 75h), Succubus (Public Baths, 150h)

There is a possibility that this is overkill, however, I think it's worth trying.


None of these changes have been implemented yet, although I have a pretty good idea how to do so. Any and all changes planned so far are up for discussion. If anyone has any other suggestions, especially on how to fix those issues that I don't have a plan for (such as Summoner, Esus, or any of the other weak civilizations), please tell!


Changelog:

Unit Change: Boost Mud Golem Cost: 50H -> 75H (Same base cost as Worker)
Unit Change: Puppets gain SPECIALUNIT_SPELL which means they are in the same class as floating eye, fireball, and meteor and do not benefit from SUMM (Summoner Balsareph Exponentiation Problems)
Bug: Match Grigori Tavern cost to the new Tavern cost
Crash: Nox Noctis Crash
Unit Change: Increase Fawn Cost: 60H -> 75H
Trait Change: Varn Gosam trait change: SPI/CHM (ADA) -> SPI/CRE (ADA)
Building Change: Planar Gate Cost Reduced: 300H -> 250H
Building Change: Planar Gate Doubled by Summoner
Unit Change: Chaos Marauder: Is buildable, Cost: 45H, Requires: Planar Gate, Carnival
Unit Change: Manticore: Is buildable, Cost: 240H, Requires: Planar Gate, Grove
Unit Change: Mobius Witch Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Mage Guild
Unit Change: Minotaur: Is buildable, Cost: 240H, Requires: Planar Gate, Obsidian Gate
Unit Change: Reveler: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Gambling House
Unit Change: Succubus: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Public Baths
Unit Change: Tar Demon: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Temple of the Veil
Building Change: Khazad Palace Loses Gold Resource, Gains Enchantment Mana
Ritual Change: Elegy of the Sheaim Cost Halved: 600H -> 300H
Ritual Change: Hallowing of the Elohim Cost Halved: 600H -> 300H

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Related Correspondence:

I intend to publish a thread on this in the near future. Do you have any pet peeves with EitB as it stands that you feel need changing?

Yeah, there are the changes I would implement:


* Have the Tower requiring Omniscience be a game option, like lairs or Hyborem. Some games are going to have a naturally slow enough tech pace that forcing the Tower back by several thousand beakers isn't necessary- see XXXIII for instance. But then of course for other games things move at a blazing pace, especially if people play with a variant that speeds up tech. This change would simply formalize what the community is already doing.

* I agree that Volanna is OP. I do not agree that her traits need to be nerfed or changed. The real issue is Fawns- right now they're simply better than Hunters, for the same cost and without a pre-req building. Make them require Temples of Leaves and cost 5-10 hammers more (on quick) and I think the problem is mostly solved.

* Allow Fireballs to pillage- they might see a little more use that way, and it doesn't make much sense that they can't explode cottages. Maybe allow them to destroy improvements without giving any gold? Not sure if that's possible.

* Make the Guilds tech cheaper, nobody ever researches it, despite there being some cool stuff there. Make Machinery and Precision cheaper too- not dramatically so, but enough that they go from "never researched" to "rarely". I don't even bother with them in SP, and my SP games can run on for ages.

* Culture wins need to be viable. I think the community generally agrees that the only real path to a culture win is the strategy Mist proposed some years ago- build lots of temples in your to-be legendary cities (they're about the only multipliers you'll get), adopt a bunch of culture % increasing civics, adopt Sacrifice the Weak and something that allows unlimited artist specialists, and then run as many artists as possible in your three largest cities in a crazy rush to victory (it still takes a long time). I might be forgetting a step or two in there. Regardless, I have chatted recently with Ellimist about it, and we have come to the conclusion that there are only five viable leaders for a culture win- Arendal or Amelanchier of the Ljo (build huge cities with the elven economy, switch out of GotN into StW for the artist push), either Sidar leader (artist wanes, in addition to the Mist strategy), and Hyborem (settle lots of manes in three cities, convert them all to barbs). And of course there are a lot of assumptions involved for each of those about things in-game which must go their way (like Hyborem getting huge piles of manes). The win attempt is also fraught with danger, significantly more so than the Tower or Altar, because the player has three cities which are tied up producing culture and not contributing military, and has turned off teching in favor of running the culture slider.

I'm not entirely sure what needs to be done to make Culture victories feasible. Perhaps boost the culture % modifier of civics like Religion. It's something for the community to discuss, though.





I also don't agree with some of the proposed v10 changes (I wasn't on RB when they were discussed):


* "Spell Change: Move Lich Spell from Malevolent Designs to Divine Essence"

Divine Essence is way too far away. I guess this was proposed so that non-evil & agnostic civs could still enjoy some Lichs, but it still seems like something that will never see use. Maybe just remove any requirements for Lichdom besides having Death III?


* "Unit Change: Druids lose Channeling III but keep their druid spells"

Horrible, terrible change. This changes Druids from "great, but expensive" to "horribly expensive and just use anything with Sun II instead". This was obviously proposed as a reaction to something someone thought was too scary in a PBEM- except I can't recall any where druids actually played much of a role.


* "Demon's Altars are National Wonders"

Absolutely awful change. This must have been proposed after I rushed to Beasts in the Armageddon game, and yet even under ideal conditions they were built too slowly! This is a giant nerf to Hyborem, who gets innate bonuses to Veil structures, and is completely unnecessary reactionary bullcrap.



That's all I got for now

Thanks! Just my reactions:

*I agree with the Omnescience option.

*I disagree on Volanna - whilst fawns are a big portion of strength for Vollanna, the divide between those and hunters (or fawns + some nerfs) is not so great at all, and with the Svartalfar as powerful a civ as it is, it does not warrant such a powerful and synergestic trait combination as she has. Not only that, but her trait setup is so powerful that it overshadows her fellow leaders considerably - why pick the others in a standard setup? At the end of the day, the Svartalfar "gimmick" is that it is a much stronger civ then the Ljolsofar, but has much worse leaders.

*Fireballs pillage...not sure if necessary, but shouldn't be too hard. It would probably be a change to the Elemental race in general though, so might have some decent consequences.

*I agree on techs.

*I also agree on culture - but that's a big difference from knowing how to solve it. Certainly something to bring up, but perhaps not immediately.

*I agree with you on lichdom. However, that area of the tree is quite weak, so I can see the advantages of boosting it...and it's not like death mana needs any help.

*Druids - I'm in two minds on this. The motivation is likely the, very understandable, issue that Druids are like High Priests on steroids - HPs cost more and only have Medic 3 and the "Heal" spell as recompense (plus druids can fly and all). However, I agree that it weakens druids a lot...Hum, I suppose it comes down to the purpose of them - maybe cheapen that line and leave them more about the "fly" function and cheap Vitalize/Nature spells?

*I need to read that bit of the thread again. I was actually around for this, and I remember agreeing with it, although I don't recall why. Infernal are certainly going to get some other changes though.



What do you think about the strength of Civs?

What do you think the spawn rate for Planar Gates should be?

This is the current setup (apparently):

Under 50: 1 unit of each per Planar Gate with 6% chance to spawn
50-74: 2 units of each per Planar Gate with 9% chance to spawn
75-99: 3 units of each per Planar Gate with 12% chance to spawn
100: 4 units of each per Planar Gate with 15% chance to spawn

I'm looking at increasing that significantly, probably more proportionally to the AC. But what spawn rate percentage (SRP) per AC do you think it should roughly be? SRP = 1/3 of AC (so at blight we have a 10% chance)? SRP = 1/2 of AC?

Thanks!

At the end of the day, the Svartalfar "gimmick" is that it is a much stronger civ then the Ljolsofar, but has much worse leaders.


Hmm, I disagree. There isn't really much difference between the Ljo & Svarts- Illusionists aren't necessarily better than regular Mages, just different, and none of their either UU are particularly amazing. The real advantage of the Svarts is that Sinister is loads better than Dexterous, and in EitB that mainly manifests in Fawn rushes. Which is the whole problem with Volanna. Hunters aren't as bad, they require an expensive building and have a hefty city attack malus. Fawns are fast, powerful murderers who upgrade into really early T3 units. I wouldn't call Faeyrl a particularly weak leader, nor pre-EitB Amelanchier a strong one. Nerf fawns, and Volanna just becomes another high-tier leader, which is fine- it's just fawn-rushing having no counter which is the issue.



Druids - I'm in two minds on this. The motivation is likely the, very understandable, issue that Druids are like High Priests on steroids - HPs cost more and only have Medic 3 and the "Heal" spell as recompense (plus druids can fly and all). However, I agree that it weakens druids a lot...Hum, I suppose it comes down to the purpose of them - maybe cheapen that line and leave them more about the "fly" function and cheap Vitalize/Nature spells?


Yeah, I can see it both ways. In EitB Druids are much more expensive to unlock than their Good and Evil T4 counterparts, so making Commune with Nature cost about the same as Fanaticism & nerfing the Druid unit would be really tempting. But a big problem is that Commune is a prereq for some really strong techs and IIRC a victory condition, so you'd have to get into a whole rigmarole of changing tech costs / paths. Or I guess just figure that the techs Commune unlocks are already expensive enough on their own so as to not make a difference, balance-wise. Speaking of priests and tech costs, the tech that unlocks T4 Priests is way too expensive.


What do you think the spawn rate for Planar Gates should be?


Proportionally sounds good. Half makes sense to me. Most games don't go much above 40, and that's only when they're about over (and cities are being razed left & right). TBH even with half it seems difficult to justify building many. Figuring that the AC will be on average maybe 20 for the duration between when you can build the Gates and the game ending, each Gate is going to have to pump out at least a couple units to justify its cost, and those units in turn require prereq buildings- and the best of them need special techs you'll probably never research (has anyone ever gotten a Manticore or Minotaur before, even in SP?). At only a 10% chance each turn of getting a unit (which could end up being something almost totally worthless), it's tough to justify building a Planar Gate instead of... almost anything else, really. They just aren't a viable means of production. Even Bannor towns are more efficient.
Btw, feel free to take this to the forum when you're ready or whatever, just copy-paste in my replies

Yeah, I plan to post my proposal sometime tonight. I had hoped to wait for Sareln to get back to me on whether he wants to publish EitB v10 (sans the BUG option change) or whether he can send me that progress for me to incorporate. (He did respond to my mail, I'm not just holding out in hope )

*By "a much stronger civ," I had meant the DEX<<<SIN thing. Even with weaker fawns, we still have a elf leader that can hit the ground running big time, and overshadows her opposites on both sides of the elven kingdom. I don't see Vollanna being allowed back into the game in these conditions, and if she was, I would be jumping to get her.

*Yeah a lot to think about there. I'd rather not muck around with something as fiddly as tech costs for now, so I'll just leave as is initially.

Chatted with Ellimist, came up with a couple more v10 changes:


Khazad have some major issues. They have some very strong units, but the vaults just make their civ very unappealing- at the same time, the vaults are very powerful if you manage to fill them, so you can't overdo it. What about:

* Palace has Enchantment mana instead of a Gold resource

* Palace gives -40% city number and distance costs (effectively 45 with starting Law mana)

* WS triples your current gold, no longer creates hills.


Also talked a bit about the Infernals- to quote myself:

bobchillingworth: The main issue with hyborem (no pun intended) is that when you summon him with the intention of playing the Infernals, from the moment you spawn in vitally important things are outside your control. Where you spawn in, what the AI does in its Turn of Insanity before you take over, whether your opponents build evil units, and kill evil units, and raze evil cities...


I think a fair boost would be to make new Infernal cities start at size 6, instead of 3. Since the Infernals don't need food, that's potentially the equivalent of about 12 citizens, if you're working all mines.

Size 6 seems like it might be a bit too much. I'm looking at Size 4 on founding, and allowing them to build manes at 30 (normal) hammers a pop. Potentially making it so those start with held so they have to be naturally built. Also, AI doesn't get ToI if you check Human Hyborem (IIRC).[/quote

[quote=Bobchillingworth]RE: Hyborem, I came up with size 6 working on the assumption that he probably isn't going to get many manes at all naturally. The way humans play, when manes aren't going to arrive in the steady stream AI give you- instead, my experience holds that you'll suddenly get huge influxes within about 20 turns of the game ending, as armies are suddenly lost and cities razed- and of course at that point the game is soon to be over, because humans don't casually toss away units or keep huge reserve stacks like AI.

Re:Hyborem: My main worry here is that spamming settlers becomes super-efficient - I mean, it pretty well already is what with the free buildings, but at 6 pop you can just pop them down everywhere for an easy benefit, at least with buildable manes this means that they have to invest a bit into it

Related Chat (warning for length):

Sent at 5:32 PM on Friday
Bob: Guess I'll just respond via chat, since you're here now
you can copy & paste this into the thread when you post or whatever
Me: Yeah sure
Probably spoil the whole thing too
Bob: I think you are underestimating how much crap Volanna has to do to really take off
Sent at 5:36 PM on Friday
Bob: yes, she can expand quickly, but to really get the benefit of her civilization, she has to research FoL, then up to Priesthood, and then tech to Recon, just to have a complete economy and basic military
that has always been the deal with both elven civilizations
a really strong economy that takes forever to build and leaves you vulnerable in the process
the Ljo have an EXP leader too
so the big difference is AGG, and Sinister- and where that shows up is with the darn Fawns
Volanna has won a single game, IIRC
with a fawn rush.
Me: Yes, she does take a while to take off
(she's played one game as well )
However!
Bob: like, she'd still be very strong
but... so what?
EitB has several strong leaders who take a while to really get going
Me: Because of her traits, she is able to accelerate much faster then any elf but Thessa (who IMO is the strongest Ljol)
Bob: make it so she doesn't have an uncounterable early rush option and she isn't any worse than, idk, Jonas
See, I consider Thessa theweakest elf
she needs so many things
Me: And because of AGG, even without using SIN she is able to protect her weak stage, the opening for far longer
In summary - elves get too be awesome late, but are weak early. EXP reduces the time she is weak, whilst AGG allows better protection whilst she is
Ha, agree to disagree there. Thessa is my favorite elf leader
But then, you don't like mage gameplans IIRC
Bob: You could say almost the exact same thing about Sheelba, and she's almost universally considered weaker than Jonas, and pretty mediocre over all
Me: Err, no
Sheelba is pretty strong IMO, but different thought entirely
Bob: Double settlers with warrens, AGG, and ORG to make expansion easier to afford
and an incredible late game if she can get there
Me: Clan are not weak early, they are strong. They grow to be weak late
Because they fall behind
Bob: what!
... that really doesn't bear with my experiences, at all
or even what we've seen in games
Ellimist ran away with the Clan in the first game he won
Me: In clan you are always weaker tech wise so you compensate with it through numbers
I think we're talking about different things
Bob: the Barbarian science penalty doesn't have a particularly dramatic impact late-game
Me: Clan are the strongest really late, its that they can't get there because of penalties and other expansion
Bob: warrens workers and being left alone by barbarians early on easily makes up for it
Me: No, but it does in the mid game
Yes it does. Clan are very strong
But besides the point, and I think we're arguing at cross-sections from each other
Bob: Shrug. Without a very strong early unit to protect her, I'm just not seeing how Volanna is OP, as opposed to just a very good choice
Hunters aren't on the path to FoL, either
Me: Yes they are
Bob: oh wait, I guess it's AH which is optional
Me: yeah
Bob: well whatever, you still have to build the stupid Lodges
Me: Yeah. still...I wouldn't ever pick Faeryl with Vollanna there, even if I couldn't build fawns at all
Bob: I agree, I wouldn't either... but I don't like Illusionists, at all

Me: Oh yeah.
Bob: I wouldn't play as Faeyrl under most circumstances
Me: I think I'll make Illusionist an optional alternative to mage
Bob: hmm
a free upgrade?
Me: Although then I might have to make a seperate archmage
no
This lets you choose which you want
Bob: seperate adept too... I think their skeleton summons are illusions
Me: I don't think free mages is nessecary
Bob: I mean, mages can upgrade for free to illusionists
Me: Yeah, but who cares there, not going to be bothered with if skellies are illusions or not
Huh, I suppose
I thought it would be better to just divide though
Bob: Either way, I guess. I think that's sort of a buff to a civ that might not need it, though
Illusionists are I think generally a bit worse than mages
Svart Archmages are pretty sweet
Me: Yeah, but currently the change is not intended to worsen them, IMO, its just that's how it turned out
Awesome until Empyrean destroys your gameplan
Bob: sure
I mean, I think illusionists being meh might be kind of the point
it forces them to lug around killing units with the arcane dudes
Me: I think it maybe should be how magic works in general
Bob: kind of keeps an otherwise really strong civ in check
Me: But that's too much of a sidebar
I suppose
Bob: well *more killing units
Me: I just get the feeling it is a flavor thing by the devs, who didn't really consider the consequences
And basically means no one goes the arcane route with Svarts
Bob: Like, I think we just have different perspectives on what is powerful with what leaders
Thessa seems very weak to me
Me: Probably
Bob: you need PoL, you need Arcane units, you need Champs or Rangers or LB to cover them, you need archery for your hero
Me: You have more mp experience which is probably there
And why do you need Champs or Rangers or LB to cover them, you need archery for your hero
Like why not just use mages
Bob: Mages + PoL is, what, 6 strength defending, at best?
Me: Nature 2 should probably plant forests - another thing will never get done
Depends what you're summoning
Bob: we're going to assume you don't have death mana coming out your ass
Me: Okay, so 3 mana total?
Sent at 6:00 PM on Friday
Me: Lets say 10 mages, throwing out Hosts, enchanted bladed, maelstrom, speeding in on body
That's yeah sure S6 effective, but hosts have maybe E3 as well, and besides, why are they getting that close?
What are the alternatives at that tech?
Bob: See, there's the issue
Me: Iron axes?
Bob: because she had to spend a lot of beakers running up the divine line too
Me: Do tell
Bob: you could be facing T3 by that point.
against, say, Calabim
or otherwise a lot of the more powerful T2 units
say, HA
Me: HA suck in EitB
Which...hum. I should do something about that. But true
Bob: not to mention that PoL are somewhat redundant in a summoner army, yet you need them anyway
Me: Even so, Elves don't need to outfight you there
Bob: like, she isn't bad. But none of the Elves are
Me: and that sort of army can probably defend there
And the alternative is Arendal - and how many priests have you got by then?
Only two mana techs and sorcery
Bob: Well the big advantage of Arendal is military
I mean economy
hah
Me: so maybe Veil?
hah
Bob: because she's the only one who can get in and out of GoN
the Elven Crack civic
Me: True. But if you ignore the other religions, you can just stay in
Bob: oh man, that's such a waste!
she's the only one who can really get away with Elven Runes and Elven StW
Me: Which yes, are incredible
But the distance isn't massive if you just eat the infinite hapiness/health
Bob: Idk if I'd even touch the Arcane line as her..
with several divine units boosted in EitB...
Me: Yes. Order might be good
Bob: I guess just the adept stuff
Me: Do crusaders dissappear if you leave?
Bob: no
neither to Paramanders
which got massively boosted
Me: So then go for a quick conversion
Bob: do*
Me: Did they?
Bob: 8 strength defending
2 moves with SPI
Medic, Demon Slaying, respectable 6 attack
80 hammers
very nice units
with SPI
Me: That's with iron, no?
Bob: copper
can't use metal weapons
but need copper
Me: oh
Bob: Crusaders can use metal weapons, they're basically just cheap, weaker champs
Me: 6/8 natural
Bob: yeah
Me: Yeah, but you get them free with each order conversion
Bob: Yeah, Crusaders are nice too.
Divine game in general is a lot stronger in EitB
Me: So pick up order, get 15 units and 5 priests
So is ARC thoguh
Mages used to be really hard to get
Bob: I don't play many SPI games mostly because I think it's pretty easy to get trapped in an endless well of new Divine toys
really easy to get stuck with a broad but shallow army
Me: Yeah
Bob: I prefer civs with deep beelines, generally
just a personal preference tho
lots of people have made SPI work
Me: Same. I've never really done SPI
I'm more of a one for a gameplan with a endgoal
Bob: right
well moving down your email... (just put me down for "mostly disagress about Volanna")
I guess I misunderstood about Keelyn
Me: Yup
Thought so
Bob: I thought the change was puppets can't summon units which last for 2 turns
I guess it's just puppets can't last for 2
summons otherise unchanged?
that's a lot more reasonable
Me: Think so
Honestly though, probably wouldn't go Keelyn with this. Just not strong enough compared to Perp
Bob: yeah, idk
I guess I'd go with her if I wanted a mage game
Me: Even then, no ARC sucketh
Bob: Furia if I wanted melee
Me: Furia's what?
CRE/BAR/RAI?
Bob: Cha / Rai / Barb
Me: Oh
Bob: pretty nasty with Harlequins
if anybody used them
Me: Harles are best with Gibbon Earth Elementals though
Bob: Perp is really fun, but he's completely unreliable
Me: Yeah. But 3 traits are normally applicable
Bob: yeah, I mean he always has at least one good one
but like losing Raiders just when you want to start building up blows
Me: Yeah
Bob: and gaining ORG sort of compels you to suddenly cue up Command Posts in all your production cities before it disappears
Me: Best setup: start mage buildup with ARC/CHA and then get RAI just as you invade
Bob: I mean I love him for SP, but otherise... mehhh
Me: Yeah, the lack of focus would mean I wouldn't go MP, but then I want a really set one for my first game
Bob: Ellimist really likes him, but Ellimist also mostly just uses him for Freaks, which really would be better with Furia
Me: (A part of me can't believe I've never played a FFH MP game...)
Bob: wait, you haven't?
you're in the Perpy game, right?
Me: Oh there is 31
But that's not MY game
Just one I jump in and fiddle around with once every 2 months
Bob: you should totally propose a new game
drag in some bums from Civfanatics
Me: But time...
Bob: new blood
for the new blood god
Me: Hmm, maybe
Would you dedlurk/cover for 2 weeks in 2 months time?
Bob: play a game with a slow pace Pretty sure civ fanatics people would oblige
sure
Me: Actually NO DON'T DISTRACT ME!
I am going to get this update done before I do anything else, no SP no nothing
I know myself too well
Bob: hah, well I'm pretty sure any game you propose is going to take forever to fill up
because the standard RB crowd is pretty busy with games already
Me: Yeah
Bob: so you really would need to either wait a long time or drag people in from Fantatics
Me: I probably would propose at CFC
though how well they'd take to it, who knows?
And then you have to reinvent the wheel to make sure they all know what they're in for
Bob: pretty much. Which might work out just right.
Game won't start for a while, that's for sure
and hey, if you can bring a new crop of players in, that'd be great
Me: Yeah
Still, not this weekend
Bob: hmm okay so you're asking me in the email about what civs are weak vs. strong
well, I can't even remember them well enough to rank them all, I guess
uh call out random civs
I'll give a couple pithy thoughts
Me: Grigori
Dovellio
Amurite
Bob: one at a time, doofus
Me: Sheiam

Griggy
Bob: Grigori- been used in few games, but Thoth did win as them once. Can do a strong early rush, and the Medic unit is amazing (you're basically always at full health). But happiness is terrible. Very map-dependant.
Weak-to-Okay, depends on mapmaker being generous with luxuries. And having luck with a rush.
(if you wanted to improve them, Dragonslayers are a pretty obvious option- really laughable UU right now)
Me: Hmm, I could make them +200% versus dragons...

Bob: Doviello- Buffed a lot in EitB. Pretty solid, lots of neat tricks you can pull with the WS and upgrading mechanics. Both leaders are solid, although playing Charadon on a large map is tantamount to suicide, so don't have Mardoc GM ;P
Me: Heh
Bob: Pretty strong, I'd say.
Me: Dovellio is just one I can't get a read on, because never played MP and they have a very different style from me
Obviously TBS dominated with Charadon, but depends on the target of the rush
Bob: Amurites- well, you're basically playing too completely different games depending on which leader you pick. Woman Leader is for Firebow rushing, which I think has a lot of potential in teamer games and small maps, but leaves you economically very weak and very vulnerable until you get all your little pieces in place (civics, command posts, tech)
Man Leader is obviously all about bulbing the arcane line
I never do this, so... idk
I guess he's okay.
starting mana is really nice
Potentially the most broken civ in the game, but you'd need an insane amount of tech so forget it
Me: Yeah. I think Amurites are pretty nicely balanced tbh
Hmm, clan or amurite for Medieval start
?
Bob: I'd rate them as pretty middle-of-the-road.
weak early game, weak-to-strong mid game depending on if you get caught with your pants down before deplaying FB / Wizards, asurdly strong late game- if you can supply the tech, which you probably can't
Me: Would amurite beat Hippus in '29?
Bob: hard to say for a medieval start, but those would certainly be top tier- I think we already had that convo
which was that?
Me: Massive map Elli got caught on
And HK built 100 cities
Bob: hmm, right
eh, they aren't super-moble
certainly would have had time to make an incredibly army, but actually moving it across the map?
dubious
Me: (on second thought probably die to the barbs - pushing them so far behind that even with all their toys they'd be too weak to beat the massive empire of Hippia)
Anyway, Khazad, and then Khazad if they didn't have the inital -2 happy, as if the worst vault is knocked out entirely
Bob: what was the fourth civ, Sheaim?
idk how to play these guys, tbh
averax is simple enough
but the other two?
even in FFH, I couldn't figure them out
they're arcane or whatever, fine, okay
but... they have a single arcane UU
and it's really late
and sucks
except on defense
which sucks
so, idk. Play if you want an early UU that makes everyone fear and hate you, and then want to either play a bog-standard arcane game or continue to bother people with exploding axemen
Me: Yeah. Wait until reading the vaults proposal though, too many planned changes to evaluate pre
Bob: well your proposed new gates sound like a real pain to code
Me: Problem is SUM sucks
Hush!
Bob: I would just jack the spawn rate way up
call it a day
fuck, just triple the current rate
bam, done
Me: Thought was largely based off - now they can build mages!
Bob: mehhh
mehhhhhhhhhhhhh
you know who can already build mages
fucking Sabratheil
and nobody plays as him
Me: And other fun things, and cheaper and blah blah blah
Sabathiel?
Org/Chm
Bob: Org and CHM.
instamages
Me: BORING BANNOR
Bob: yeah
probably least-picked civ
even sidar get more love
Me: Elohim
Bob: they've been showing up a lot lately
Me: Honestly, I prefer Bannor to Elohim
Bob: thessalonica is tempting
Me: Yeah, suppose SPI awesomeness helps
But just...why?
Bob: Bannor... have very nice unit graphics
that's the nicest thing I can say about them
Me: lol
Bob: Like, they aren't bad
just absurdly micro intensive
fucking fanatics everywhere
Me: Nah, I'd go Bannor if I had to choose between the two. At least they have a gameplan
gtg
Bob: and then you have to gather all the little idiots up and give them pet adepts to enchant their blades and haste them and UGH
laterz
Sent at 6:44 PM on Friday
Bob: post this chat i think i was very quoatable
Me: Indeed
Sent at 7:00 PM on Friday
Bob:
I started ranking all the civs for you, but I got bored about 1/4 of the way through
in sum, I think maybe 7 or so are really good, the rest are okay
none are "bad"
I think the Sheaim are the weakest, if you ignore leader traits for everyone.
also in the bottom: Elohim, Luchiurp (once the mud golem price adjustment comes in), Grigori
Strongest are about who you would expect: Balz, Calabim, Clan, both Elves, Kurios
but out of everyone, really only the Sheaim have serious gaps in strategy
Me:
But with buildable Gate units and better spawn rates, as well as some improvement to SUM...
Bob:
I think all they really need are much better spawn rates
they have all these really neat UU
that never appear
Me:
Yeah
Bob:
also requirements for a couple are incredibly stupid
Me:
I just worry that a strategy based on chance is too...unreliable
Bob:
the Manticores, which are by far the best gate units, require _groves_
fucking groves!
who came up with that?!
it boggles the mind
Me:
used to be warhorses
Bob:
I don't even know what minotaurs require, they never seem to appear
Me:
and they *are* roughly the same as knights'
Bob:
forges, maybe
Me:
lol
Its Obsidian gates!
Bob:
FFS.
Me:
hahahaha good freaking luck
Bob:
yeah, both of those probably need to be moved up :P
I mean, I can understand making them tough to obtain
because they're T4 units you can theoretically have in unlimited numbers
but sheesh
Me:
But manticores are too powerful for stables....hum.
Bob:
Manticores are really powerful
because they fly
FFH doesn't have many flying counters, pre-archmages
any by many, I mean any
except fireballs
Me:
...which is why groves
Problem is, once you have CwN, you still have to build a bunch of them
Bob:
yeah, I understand that, but the sheaim have zero reason to go for Commune with Nature
Me:
Which is why implementation is really stupid
Bob:
if you make Commune cheaper, then I guess it's acceptable
otherwise...
Me:
But normallly, CwN is okay for having a T4 unit at
Reason it doesn't work? Because they spawn, not buildable12:49 PM
Put them at a decent price and maybe make a NU limit, and suddenly its a okay tactic
Bob:
eh
it's because CwN is very expensive, the Sheaim start as evil and have great synergy with the veil so they won't usually be neutral, gates are expensive, groves are expensive... it's a whole lot to ask for some units
really nice units, but by the time you get them your opponents will have T4 of their own
probably a couple different types.
Me:
I really want to make it based off tech, not building

Bob:
so when are you going to post your EitB ideas
what are you waiting for
and by "your ideas" I mean "mostly mine"
Me:
I'm writing it up
It's going to be quite long
Bob:
can i write the forward
"just read all the stuff i wrote"
Me:
Hmm?
The foreword?
Bob:
yeah whatever
Me:
Well I sent you one and that remains same
Hyborem always appears with his Hero, two Champions, two longbowmen, two settlers, two workers and an imp. [CHECK] This right?
Bob:
one worker
and three manes
that the AI usually "upgrades" into scouts
Me:
Hah
Bob:
also, the settlers spawn in with the starting settler promotion
Me:
Yeah
Bob:
which makes them supurb scouts
supurb
suberb
su
Me:
And some of the units come with M1
Bob:
fuck it
Me:
superb
Bob:
fuck you!
Me:
haha
Bob:
yes
right, all the non-mane and non-Hyborem combat units are Mobility 1
And obviously Hyborem spawns with the Gela, which technically is also a unit
Me:
Isn't Hybie?
Bob:
I don't think so?
Me:
Or is he just 2 move base
Bob:
2 base
Me:
Yeah that's it
What do you say to the idea of golems starting with the commando promotion
Bob:
uhhh
seems very strong
Me:
But max 2 moves
Bob:
3
Me:
And they have to find/make roads
true
Bob:
what luchiurp isn't researching engineering?
and gargoyles would be 6 moves
Me:
What if it was tied to one of those obscure buildings?
Bob:
I'm not sure if you know, it was before I started playing FFH, but I have heard that golems once could get the Heavy and Light promotions from structures
maybe just restore those
nobody uses any but blastic workshops anyway
I can't even remember what the other two are
Me:
Uhh, building bulk
Bob:
one gives "perfect vision" or sonething
can't remember the other one at all
probably invisibility
gotta run, I'll be back later.
got some more thoughts on hyborem
Me:
see ya
Proposal: As well as his current starting units, Hyborem receives a number of axes, manes and settlers (sans promotions) equal to half the average number of cities in the game.
Bob:
honestly, that sounds way too complicated
Also, I don't like the idea of him building manes
Ellimist has brought it up before too
I think it has too much snowball potential
if they're too cheap
but even if they're difficult to 1-turn in anything but the capital, that's still awfully strong
I do favor just having infernal cities spawn at size 6
which encourages ICS play, yes
but that's already the best move for him
the change just makes it viable
Me:
Uhh, spent about an hour trying to implement that
Personally, building pop has a tradeoff
And its actually quite hard to get to the point where you want to go vertical like that
even in SP
Bob:
You just can't compare playing infernals in SP to MP
Me:
You need a ton of techs
Bob:
it's completely different
Me:
Yeah, I know
Bob:
I've done enough of both to know
Me:
What I'm saying is, even in SP where you can do whatever the hell you want, it takes ages to get to the point where super infernal cities take off
Bob:
But you don't need super cities to break MP. Here's the thing with building manes- Hyborem gets +100% production in his capital with Godking
and Infernal citizens can be much more productive than regular citizens, because obviously you don't need to worry about food
You could easily start 1-turning manes the turn you spawn in
Me:
Okay, say 3h tile
Bob:
15 turns of that, you can can produce most units in a single turn
Me:
Sure its easy to do (though +50% not +100%)
And 15 units is a lot
And diminishing returns
Bob:
50%? Hyborem's palace gives a production bonus
Me:
Oh does it?
Bob:
yeah
Me:
Anyway, you have maybe 15 good tiles max
And that's really max
So you can get 45hpt max, 90hpt with bonii
Which yeah is a lot
Bob:
I don't think you understand how broken this is going to get. 15 citizens working mostly production tiles means you can 1, maybe 2-turn most military units... which you would want to do for a little while, for defense and to pop out some settlers
Me:
But you've put 60 worker turns, 300 hammers and 15 turns into getting that
Bob:
but the real trick is adopting caste, or one of the other "unlimited specialist" civics, and then running 15 scientists
15 anything but engineers
because every infernal citizen could be working a tile, or they could be a specialist- and it's easy to unlock unlimited specialists in EitB
now 3 or 4 beaker sages aren't amazing, but that's a _lot_ of bulbs
or culture bombs.
or settled priests, in a godking capital
Me:
So speaking entirely in terms of pricing a pop, what would you consider the point at which you wouldn't be building manes
(in MP)
Bob:
idk. That's what Ellimist and I chatted about for a while
he suggested 50, which is too expensive to build casually in non-captal cities, unless you captured them large or something
but Hyborem's capital could still one-turn them if the AI doesn't waste your starting manes
Me:
Is the capital bonus an issue then?
Bob:
I would rather just aboid the headache and make his new cities start larger
Me:
As in, would that be a good solution without it?
Bob:
yeah the capital bonus is a big problem- but losing it hurts a lot
because I think the reason Kael gave it to him is the same reason he spawns with 2 LB instead of 4 Champs
Me:
What I'm really coming from is that Hyborem needs a way to grow his cities, as it is impossible to rely on the current method of getting manes
Bob:
basically he needs to be able to produce defenders pretty quickly
Me:
Yeah
Which is what he is "balanced" around, as the AI is reliable in its stupidity
Bob:
like I told Ellimist, it would be nice if Hyborem could build a living unit that isn't Rosier
Me:
Yeah
Bob:
but what can you do? Invent new units for him?
that's way outside the scope of the mod
Me:
Another change I'm looking at is making demonic (right?) units give manes
But I won't be doing that for a while
Bob:
that would probably be annoying to program
snce you'd have to be sure you didn't have manes giving manes
Me:
Yeah
Just give them "not living" or whatever the horsemen tag is
Bob:
I mean, if I can just indulge in wishful thinking, I'd like it if everytime someone switched to an "evil" civic he got manes
Me:
Yeah
I really wish we had the variable alignment thing some of the mods have (never tried it, but sounds good)
Bob:
Hyborem is def. the toughest civ to balance tho
Me:
Yep
How much would you cry if I took away his iron?
Bob:
at the end of the day, he could spawn in some icy hell and be completely screwed no matter what
uh lots
Me:
Yeah
Bob:
It's a little odd, Kael obviously realized that the Infernal could snowball out of control if manes were too easy to obtain, yet the Mercurians can easily supply their own angels
Me:
issue is, if i get the variable spawn thing down, I don't want to power up his rush too much
Bob:
with AGG / RAI, it's not like throwing axes at people is a _bad_ idea...
People would play as Mercurians all the time if you could bulb Fanatacism
Me:
Mercurian just =/= Infernal on soooo many levels
They're completely different
Anything wrong with making snow +1c at rivers?
Bob:
what's the point?
Me:
Illian
Bob:
The Illians aren't economically disadvantaged
like, obviously the change is to Bob: efit them, but why
Me:
No, but it's a bit stupid that they lose out from transforming the terrain
Bob:
well, that's why a smart illian player doesn't actually transform all of their land :P
Me:
True.
You're right however, while it might be a good change it isn't important, so I'll leave it for now.
Fawns: just add ToL as a requirement or increase cost?
Bob:
both, I think
were the discounted in EitB? I can't remember
Me:
They're slightly better, but it ruins the symmetry...
All T2 units were IIRC
Bob:
I don't think hunters were
gotta double-check that
Me:
Yeah they were, big time (fawns)
90h->60
Bob:
yow
Me:
So 75h?
Bob:
well, people weren't building them before
in regular FFH
but sheesh.
Me:
Yeah
Bob:
heh that was probably a change I suggested, too
yeah 75
Me:
At 125% of price...maybe lose ToL?
I mean, they do already need the spread
Bob:
hrmm
I guess
Me:
How do you spell Sheaim?
Bob:
like that
Me:
Oh like that
Ha, never spelt it like that before...
What is a decent price for Mobius witches?
Bob:
uhh
120 hammers on quick, I guess
I wouldn't make them buildable to begin with :P
hmm actually maybe 160
Like, vamps are 120
for comparison
but witches could have any mage spells...
that's pretty good.
or potentially terrible.
no less than 120
Me:
Uhh, are those all quick?
Bob:
yeah
Me:
Bah!
Bob:
I never play normal!
not even SP
takes waaaaay too long
Me:
I don't think they'd get any mage spells if built naturally
Bob:
uh
what's the point then?
just, buildable mages?
Me:
Neither, but I get all my numbers of the pedia
Basically
Bob:
meh
the free, random spells are what makes them neat!
Me:
I could try to implement it
But ARC/SUM mages that don't require massive investment in getting xp is pretty valuable already
Bob:
you're going to copy in all of my commentary when you post change proposals, right?
Me:
Yeah
Bob:
No way I'm typing all this shit again
:P
Me:
Not that anyone will read it...this is like 5000 words
Bob:
delete key, man
not like I even remember what I wrote
Me:
That involves work, right?
Bob:
I can barely remember what I had for lunch
Me:
All of this is going in
Bob:
I'll be sure to forget it!

[The Black Sword]

Some quick points:

1. I wouldn't do away with the lowest value of the Khazad vaults, I like that part of their flavour. Perhaps just alter the vault levels? I was always a bit annoyed that it didn't change with game speed tbh. I also like the idea of improving their WS value, though I don't see anything wrong with the current mechanic.

2. I definitely think Druids should not get high priest spells, otherwise why would you bother with high priests? If they need another buff, fine (I'm not sure) but leave the high priests their thing.

3. I wouldn't change Esus yet. I think abusing Extort could be really powerful and we haven't seen anyone try it yet. I've wanted to myself, just haven't had the right circumstances. Though having to tech Bowyers to get more Nightwatch is annoying.

4. I like the idea of tinkering with the Planar Gates, I'd probably just go with reducing cost and increasing spawn rate. Could decrease the cost of their Ritual too?

5. Good work!

[GreyWolf]

Yeah, these sound like good ideas, especially changes to the Sheaim. Was always disappointing that they are so weak. They performed badly in all RBCiv games they were in. They are worse rushers then Charadon, and rushing is basically the only thing they got for them now.

[DaveV]

My suggestion for the Sheaim: bring back the ability for Pyre Zombies to inflict fatal damage with their explosions. I think the current non-fatal damage was an overreaction to "Waah, pyre zombies killed my stack!" For Planar Gates, I think it will be awfully hard to find the right balance between OP and Not Worth Building.

I think we need to take a look at Ashen Veil. You get the best priests, good heroes, a pretty good unit in diseased corpses, possibly the single best civic in the game, and a free tech. Either make the Grimoire a lot more expensive, or move it way back in the tech tree (to Malevolent Designs?). And make Sacrifice the Weak have some real tradeoffs instead of being the One Right Answer (High Upkeep, -30% gold instead of the present No Upkeep, +10% gold?).

For the Khazad, I propose a flat, rather than per-city, Vault threshold, with the current numbers doubled or tripled.

Fawns should be 90 hammers at normal speed, 60 at Quick, the same price as Soldiers of Kilmorph, Drowns, Diseased Corpses, and Radiant Guards. I don't know what the reasoning was for reducing their price, but I think it's been proven to be a problem.

Good idea, Q, thanks for taking the initiative on this!

[GreyWolf]

Planar Gates right now are basically a mockery of an interesting mechanics, though. Buffing them would introduce an interesting mechanics as at least niche viable, and buff a weak civ.

[Qgqqqqq]

Some quick points:

1. I wouldn't do away with the lowest value of the Khazad vaults, I like that part of their flavour. Perhaps just alter the vault levels? I was always a bit annoyed that it didn't change with game speed tbh. I also like the idea of improving their WS value, though I don't see anything wrong with the current mechanic.

Yeah that's another option to consider, altering all the values by half or so. My concern there was it might make the powerful upper echelons of this too easy to access, although perhaps that's silly given their current weakness.

2. I definitely think Druids should not get high priest spells, otherwise why would you bother with high priests? If they need another buff, fine (I'm not sure) but leave the high priests their thing.

Agreed. I think the main issue there is mainly the cost of the tech and its pre requisites being so expensive - I think I read somewhere that they were changed in EitB so I'll look into that.

3. I wouldn't change Esus yet. I think abusing Extort could be really powerful and we haven't seen anyone try it yet. I've wanted to myself, just haven't had the right circumstances. Though having to tech Bowyers to get more Nightwatch is annoying.

Okay. My main worry is that Esus just doesn't have any real military options apart from its hero and T4 units. But we probably need to see how it works in a game before changing anything.

4. I like the idea of tinkering with the Planar Gates, I'd probably just go with reducing cost and increasing spawn rate. Could decrease the cost of their Ritual too?

5. Good work!

Good point. Both the elegy and the hallowing could do with a price drop maybe even half.
Thanks

My suggestion for the Sheaim: bring back the ability for Pyre Zombies to inflict fatal damage with their explosions. I think the current non-fatal damage was an overreaction to "Waah, pyre zombies killed my stack!" For Planar Gates, I think it will be awfully hard to find the right balance between OP and Not Worth Building.

That is a concern, true. I'm not particularly worried though - I mean given that the Gates are the Sheaim thing, it's okay for them to be a must build in the same way as the Calabim manors, just so long as they don't make them overpowered, which, given the state of the Sheaim currently, I'm not particularly worried about. We could make the zombies fatal again, but I am a bit worried about letting the Sheaim be the zombie Civ, and I'd rather focus on their Arcane/Summoning themes, which need the work.

I think we need to take a look at Ashen Veil. You get the best priests, good heroes, a pretty good unit in diseased corpses, possibly the single best civic in the game, and a free tech. Either make the Grimoire a lot more expensive, or move it way back in the tech tree (to Malevolent Designs?). And make Sacrifice the Weak have some real tradeoffs instead of being the One Right Answer (High Upkeep, -30% gold instead of the present No Upkeep, +10% gold?).

Whilst AV is a very win more religion, it does have a significant tech requirement to unlock all its toys. It might need some nerfing but I'd rather that be in terms of making it more of a tradeoff path - have things like the DC being unable to heal to bring it more in the "deal with the devil" way it was conceived.
Given that the Grimorie is the main reason for going to IP I would increase its cost, if anything. I don't think we want to change Sacrifice the Weak too much - it's okay for it to be the one right choice if you're in AV and teched that far - in the same way that Arete is pretty well the One Right Answer once you've reached it. I could see changing what tree it's in so t clashes with Conquest or something, but that opens up a ton of other issues (StW+Scholarship or Liberty) as well.

For the Khazad, I propose a flat, rather than per-city, Vault threshold, with the current numbers doubled or tripled.

I don't think this is a good idea. Having it be a flat amount is going to make it impossible to balance - either too easy to obtain with a massive bonus to a massive empire or priced so high that no normal sized empire can afford it. No, a per city cost for a per city bonus (especially because unlike a wonder like TGL it is produced based off all the cities not a single one) needs to have a per city cost.

Fawns should be 90 hammers at normal speed, 60 at Quick, the same price as Soldiers of Kilmorph, Drowns, Diseased Corpses, and Radiant Guards. I don't know what the reasoning was for reducing their price, but I think it's been proven to be a problem.

While the current price is a problem, I do see why it was changed - 90h is way too much to pay for a slightly improved hunter. While the symmetry of T2 religious units is fun, it's unnecessary as they really aren't equal. 75h seems a good price for a slightly better, slightly dearer upgrade.

Good idea, Q, thanks for taking the initiative on this!

Thanks

Planar Gates right now are basically a mockery of an interesting mechanics, though. Buffing them would introduce an interesting mechanics as at least niche viable, and buff a weak civ.

These are my thoughts on this.

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm also looking at updating the civilopedia a little. Here's the new entry for the War Tortoise:

”When first we sailed this ocean, these lumbering blighters could crush our galleys and send you to the bottom of the sea. Captain Ralaster was the first to tame the animals, castrating a hundred with his harpoon and making them submit. For him, they were circus animals, an oddity to amuse the Clown-King or even a source of meat. And now? Now we ride these monsters across land and sea to reclaim my husband, and Danalin help any horse-lover that dares to stand in my path!” – Pirate-Queen Maressa, on the eve of the War of the Nine Kings

If anyone else wants to write something out, here is a list of empty entries:

Units:

Adventurer
Air Elemental
Airship
Aurealis
Battering Ram
Bear
Beast of Agares
Beastmaster
Berserker
Blooded Werewolf
Boar Rider
Centaur
Centaur Archer
Centaur Charger
Centaur Lancer
Champion
Chanter
Chaos Marauder
Confessor
Cultist
Dwarven Slinger
Earth Elemental
Eater of Dreams
Elephaunt
Flagbearer
Floating Eye
Frostling Archer/Wolf Rider
Ghost
Giant Spider
Giant Tortoise
Gorilla
Great Bard/Engineer/Merchany/Sage
Great Commander
Greater Werewolf
Griffon
Herald
High Priest of Leaves
High Priest of Winter
Ice Elemental
Illusionist
Immortal
Ira
Javelin Thrower
Kraken
Lich
Lightening Elemental
Lion
Lunatic
Luridas
Mage
Manticore
Marksmen
Minotaur
Mistform (x2?)
Mobius Witch
Nyxkin
Ogre
Ophanim
Paladin
Paramander
Pit Beast
Preist of Leaves
Prior
Privateer
Profane
Puppet
Radiant Guard
Ravenous Werewolf
Repentant Angel
Ritualist
Royal Guard
Scorpion
Sea Serpant
Seraph
Severed Soul
Shade
Shadow
Shadow Rider
Skeleton
Slave
Soldier of Kilmorph
Disciple of Acheron/Son of the Inferno
Speaker
Spectre
Stoneskin Ogre
Stonewarden
Stygian Guard
Succubus
Supplies
Tiger
Valkyrie
Vampire Lord
Vicar
War Tortoise
Wizard
Wolf
Workboat/Worker (BTS entries)

Heroes:

Avatar of Wrath
Chalid Astrakein
Magnadine
Orthus(?)
Teutorix
TumTum(?)

Buildings:

Adularia Chamber
Adventurers’ Guild
Arena
Basilica
Blasting Workshop
Breeding Pit
Chancel of Guardians
Citadel of Light
Demonic Citizens
Demons Altar
Desert Shrine
Dwarven Smithy
Dwarven Vault
Forge (BTS)
Freak Show
Governers Manor
Granary (BTS
Grigori Tavern
Grove
Hall of Mirrors
Herbalist
Jewler
Library
Lighthouse (BTS)
Money Changer
Obsidian Gate
Palisade
Pallens Engine
Planar Gate
Public Baths
Reliquary
Sea Haven
Shipyard (BTS)
Siege Workshop
Smugglers Port
Spider Pen
Stable
Tailor
Tax Office
Temple of Kilmorph
Temple of Leaves
Temple of the Empyrean
Temple of the Hand
Temple of the Order
Temple of the Veil
Walls (BTS)

Wonders:

Palaces (each is identical)
Aquae Sucellus
Celestial Compass
City of a Thousand Slums
Crown of Akharien
Dies Diei
Form of the Titan
Grand Menagerie
Guild of the Nine
Heron Throne
Mercurian Gate
Mines of Gal-Dur
Nox Noctis
Ride of the Nine Kings
Shrine of Sirona
Song of Autumn
Soul Forge
Summer Palace
Tablets of Bambur
The Dragons Hoard
The Eyes and Ears Network
The Nexus
Theatre of Dreams
Tower of Alteration
Tower of Complacency
Tower of Divination
Tower of Eyes
Tower of Necromancy
Tower of the Elements
Winter Palace

[Bobchillingworth]

Ohh flavor text! I'll take a whack at the Tailor:

"Clothes make the man. Somewhat literally in this case." - Anatam Gardrab, exiled Luchuirp inventor of the 'Cloth Golem'.

I mentioned this in chat, but I would be so totally grateful if v10 could include Magister Cultrum's expanded WB Portal functionality. The maps one could make with such a feature! The potential!

[Qgqqqqq]

Ohh flavor text! I'll take a whack at the Tailor:

"Clothes make the man. Somewhat literally in this case." - Anatam Gardrab, exiled Luchuirp inventor of the 'Cloth Golem'.

Awesome, thanks!

I mentioned this in chat, but I would be so totally grateful if v10 could include Magister Cultrum's expanded WB Portal functionality. The maps one could make with such a feature! The potential!

I'll chat him up about porting WBtools over sometime. I will say, however, that the manner in which Portals are currently handled is not saved if you save as a WBfile and then load it - so it is, as far as I can tell, impossible to make them malleable in MP games. (OTOH, he has the event for them worked out well enough).

Change-log edited into opening post.

I wonder if Mud Golems could do with a slight price drop - to 70h - however, as they do take longer to build because of the hammer issue, and the Luchuirp are weak anyway.