Whosit Tries to Sharpen His Skills (Critique Thread)

[GermanJoey]

It's too bad you lost the save for this start because I think this is one worth playing again. It's pretty unusual and certainly not something you'll probably see in your initial screenshot for a multiplayer game here. But, here it is, so how to play it?

I think your choice of Mining->BW->AH->Pottery is definitely the right tech order, but this is not a start that you want to go worker->grow to 3->settler. I think the right thing to do here is worker->grow to 2->worker->worker->settler->settler.

Why? well, by the time that first worker comes out, you can identify 4 problems:

• http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.ga...gin_01.mp3
  
• That is to say, you get this nice 12T worker, but only 1 improveable tile when it comes out. BW comes in at T21, but the worker is ready to work again, after finishing the farm, on T18.
  
• You've got two nice spots available, in the NW and E, each with pigs, but AH won't finish until T32. Its thus not worth settling until then. Its not worth grabbing AH earlier, say, after Mining, because w/o BW the worker has nothing to do for a long time. If you know the horses are there in advance it could work, but you wouldn't have known whether that tile (which is obviously a resource, being empty and off by itself in a sea of trees) is horse at that point.
  
• Another civ, which looks like the Aztecs from the color, has an extremely close capital to yours.
  

With that in mind, now you can make a plan that tries to solve those problems. So, to start with, I would try to settle the PH 1SW of the pigs for my second city. The hill plant and diagonal lead-in makes it quite defensible from Montezuma, or whatever unrestricted monstrosity is piloting the Aztecs, and grabs pigs + 3 additional forests first ring. Those are important to get your +100% production granary online as soon as Pottery is available. Also worth noting is the city can get online very FAST; with 3 workers already out before your first settler, you can road all the way to that plains hill and plop the settler down the turn it is produced. Two workers can begin pasturing the turn its settled, for a pasture complete the next turn, effectively doubling your empire's total crop yield.

While your worker is waiting for BW, he can road to the SW of your capital, using turns now to save turns later. (You really should try to road out to your cities as soon as your can; that first trade route adds 2c/turn, which eventually does add up. It can be a worthwhile tradeoff sometimes to skip roading for few turns if, say, your workers were busy doing other things very important to other cities, but never indefinitely.) Once BW comes though, you just want to chop chop chop chop. Workers chops more workers which chop more workers.

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.ga...ill_01.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.ga...ill_07.mp3
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.ga...awn_03.mp3

Settler as the 4th build probably sounds crazy slow at first, but remember that you'll probably cut down (estimating here, without simming this out) at least 7-8 trees within that 11T period. That's basically a worker and settler right there, just from chops! Then, once Pottery comes in, you'll want to get Granaries up and start growing your cities to enable some nice whip action. From thereon out, you'll want to start thinking about commerce, further expansion, etc.

[Whosit]

I definitely see how that build order makes sense for the start, but would you really be willing to have just a single Warrior defending 3 cities? I mean, I guess each new city builds a warrior, but that seems like an incredibly light defense if a neighbor gets aggressive. Is this just a case of risk/reward, or is there a plan in case something goes very wrong?

[GermanJoey]

Sure. Well, it depends on how randy your Aztecian neighbor was feeling that month I suppose, but I don't think a single warrior at T40 would be that unusual. What do you expect warriors to defend against? Besides, you have horses at your capital, you can pop out a chariot or two lickity-split if you need to. Substitute a chariot for your 3rd settler if it'll make you feel safer, or better yet, send your first warrior out to keep watch for any suspicious moves coming from the southeast!

[GermanJoey]

woops, double post!

[Old Harry]

Planting on that plains hill invalidates rice and (i think) a sea food joey. I'd probably settle nw of the pig for that reason. Also once you have your workforce you could chop out a lot of units very fast and go say hi to the aztecs rather than settle a fourth city, which would mean you didn't need the defensive terrain.

[haphazard1]

You sure are rolling a bunch of crummy, food-poor capitals Whosit!

Being surrounded by forests like that definitely argues for more workers than usual at the start. I like the placement of Orleans, or possibly NW of that as Old Harry mentioned. There does appear to be a seafood to pair with that rice, so the plains hill GermanJojo mentioned I would avoid. (Obviously a lot depends on exactly how much map info you had when, and if you knew at the time whether the seafood was there.)

I do like to have a couple of extra warriors so they can be sent out as long-range explorers. But six or seven is too many this early unless you have raging barbs turned on. Even a super-aggressive AI like Montezuma won't attack this early, and if he did get angry early you will want something stronger than warriors anyway. An extra worker rather than a few of those warriors would help your development.

[Whosit]

I don't know why I keep rolling starts like these. But I guess learning to handle extreme situations helps in the long run?

Talking about the rice and seafood, yeah, I think there is a fish down there. Both were in kind of awkward spots. I think I was planning to eventually settle 2E of the Rice because it could pick up the rice and fish with a border pop, but obviously that would be a filler city because it would take a while to actually improve those food resources.

I know for these practice games I've had Barbarians turned off, but most MP games have Barbs on, right? I definitely get that the number of Warriors I made was too high for this point in the game, but it sounds like the idea is to underbuild on defense with the intention of whipping more out later if needed? So, thinking about the Worker > Warrior > Worker > Worker > Settler > Settler build, I'd have 1-2 Warriors depending on the mod or starting techs. I'm guessing I'd leave the capital undefended and use those Warriors to spot for and defend the settlers, and defend the new cities until they are size 2 (and can whip)?

I guess I also can't "overbuild" on Workers early, because then I just should build more settlers? I still wonder if I should flip barbs back on for these games, though.

[haphazard1]

I don't know why I keep rolling starts like these. But I guess learning to handle extreme situations helps in the long run?

It is definitely good to learn how to handle a food-poor, slow growing capital. You are unlikely to get one in an MP game unless everyone has one (assuming the map has been at least roughly balanced), but they do pop up in single player. As you are proving.

Talking about the rice and seafood, yeah, I think there is a fish down there. Both were in kind of awkward spots. I think I was planning to eventually settle 2E of the Rice because it could pick up the rice and fish with a border pop, but obviously that would be a filler city because it would take a while to actually improve those food resources.

The rice/fish city would be a pretty decent city, actually, once you have a border pop and a work boat for the seafood. Any city with two food sources ranks higher than "filler" on my personal scale. But due to the initial investment (WB + some way to pop borders) the site would have to wait a little while. Especially if your neighbor (sure looks like the Aztecs to me) decided to be troublesome....

I know for these practice games I've had Barbarians turned off, but most MP games have Barbs on, right? I definitely get that the number of Warriors I made was too high for this point in the game, but it sounds like the idea is to underbuild on defense with the intention of whipping more out later if needed? So, thinking about the Worker > Warrior > Worker > Worker > Settler > Settler build, I'd have 1-2 Warriors depending on the mod or starting techs. I'm guessing I'd leave the capital undefended and use those Warriors to spot for and defend the settlers, and defend the new cities until they are size 2 (and can whip)?

It is pretty common to leave the capital undefended in SP, at least until it grows large enough to need a garrison MP unit. In MP you may want to at least have the option of whipping an emergency defender to prevent a walk-in defeat.

The build order you mention leaves your capital very small for a long time. For the third worker (and maybe even to finish the second) you may want to alternate building a warrior (or whatever, but probably a warrior) to grow while switching back to the worker on turns when chops complete. This lets you grow the capital at least some of the time, while still getting the additional worker(s) out.

I guess I also can't "overbuild" on Workers early, because then I just should build more settlers? I still wonder if I should flip barbs back on for these games, though.

It is hard to have too many workers early. I am sure it could be done with sufficient determination, though.

[Whosit]

I'm just gonna keep throwing 50 turn games in here. I appreciate the feedback. Maybe some day I'll even remember to save the 4000 BC files....

Tokugawa of France
Lakes, Standard, Monarch
Barbs on (I figure it keeps me more honest)

Turns 0-25

T0 - Settle in place. Besides the 2 pigs, plains hill start, and 8 forests, there's nothing to recommend this site. There's only one mineable hill, so there's not a ton of production available here. No river, so limited commerce. Pigs require Animal Husbandry opening to improve them. I probably need to locate some new city sites quickly and just chop things out.



T3 - Spot a dry corn to the west, and also the edge of (probably) Dutch territory. Once again, there's a peak where I'd like to put a city.

T4 - It's actually Pericles of Carthage. Creative neighbor.

T8 - While exploring, I see a Lion. I decide to pull the Warrior back. I could advance into jungle and would probably win the fight, but would rather not take the damage now.

T11 - Run into a scouting Archer from Ramesses of Rome. Isn't Commodore playing that in one of the PBEMs?



T12 - Worker completes, start Warrior. AH 1 turn from finishing. I could either put a turn into a road on the grassland pig, or move onto the hill and pasture that next turn. I'm not sure which is more useful. Grassland pig will provide more food, but since I'd waste a turn moving on to the hill anyway, might as well do it now. I go for hill pigs.

T13 - AH reveals Horses only in the frozen south. I begin mining, planning to get Bronze Working. Worker is going to run out of things to do soon, though.



T19 - Warrior finishes, city size 2. Could go Worker next, but it will finish long before I have Bronze Working, and won't have much to do besides build roads. I could build another Warrior and get to size 3, though. The best spot so far seems to be in the north, where a city could get cows, gold, and corn. I'd probably settle to get the cows and gold in 1st ring. Dry corn is 1 more food, but grassland cows is an overall stronger tile than dry corn. Will need Mysticism and a monument for a border pop. Working gold early would be nice.

T22 - I made a bad move last turn and lose my scouting Warrior to a Bear. I knew a Bear was in the area, but moved carelessly anyway. Whoops.
Other Warrior meets Roosevelt of Spain.

T23 - Bronze Working still 12 turns from completion, I'm opting to build an 8 turn Settler instead of a Worker.



T25 - Overview.

Turn 26-50

T31 - Settler finishes, settles same turn. Worker starts in capital. Warrior in new city. Worker starts pasturing cows.

T35 - Bronze Working completes. No Copper anywhere in sight. Start Hunting so I can get Archery for defense. Will delay Slavery to next turn after 2nd Worker pops out. Worker 1 moves to gold hill instead of finishing cow road.

T36 - Slavery revolt. Worker > Worker in capital. New worker goes to chop.



T39 - Tough choice, but after Warrior finishes at city 2, decide to work Cow, Gold, and build an 8 turn worker. Will put a chop into it, after roading gold though.

Not sure where a 3rd city should go. I identify a spot that can get wet corn and borrow the hill pig from the capital, but it's otherwise not a strong spot. There's not a lot else to pick from, though. Jungle is lush, but need Iron Working.

T40 - Decide to grow cap to size 4 on Warriors before swapping to Settler.

T45 - 2 pop whip settler in cap.

T46- Put whip overflow into Worker as most would be wasted on partially completed Warrior.



T47 - Barbarian Warrior appears out of fog near new city spot. Decide to build city anyway. Will delay corn farm, though. Not sure what to build in Orleans, though. Don't want more Warriors, but nothing else to grow on besides a Barracks. Go with Warriors because at least they can fog bust?

T48 - City defends, start teching Mysticism.



T50 - Overview. I think I definitely ended up better than my first few attempts. I think perhaps I should have put more chops into things, maybe went for more workers? A lot of my hesitancy came from a perceived lack of good places to settle new cities and a lack of strategic resources (I teched Hunting and Archery when I'd rather have gotten Pottery, for example). Iron Working is probably something I'd tech in the near future post turn 50 both to find iron and to allow myself the option of expanding into the jungled areas. I'd definitely need a lot more Workers to do that. I am not sure if my second city was in a good spot, but when I have small cities with few improvable tiles, I'm not sure what to build there when I have few options.

[GermanJoey]

Planting on that plains hill invalidates rice and (i think) a sea food joey. I'd probably settle nw of the pig for that reason. Also once you have your workforce you could chop out a lot of units very fast and go say hi to the aztecs rather than settle a fourth city, which would mean you didn't need the defensive terrain.

Yeah, this is right. I was looking at his first screenshot, which hadn't revealed that seafood yet, and my thought was "ah that rice is trash anyways, and you can always settle directly on it" but the solution there woulda been to scout more, not simply ignore the alternatives. Your suggestion of 1NW of the pig and then bum rushing Monty is much better.