EitB 0011 Wishlist/Discussion

[Bobchillingworth]

Why does EitB remove the free trade route at Currency?

I'm not certain, but it's probably because new trade routes were added to a bunch of buildings and/or other techs to make them more appealing.

[Qgqqqqq]

What should be done about chariot balance?

Make them require Trade, like in base FFH.

Whilst this is definitely a start, I think I agree with Mardoc that it isn't enough.

Even with requiring Trade, you're still going to pretty much always rather chariots than horse archers - they're cheaper, Trade gives other bonuses, and the defensive strength doesn't much matter. If you're getting attacked in this era, the attacker ought to have collateral and your stack's gonna die anyway. How about changing the units so that they fill different niches? I can think of a few possibilities:

• Different mobility. Cut chariots down to 2 move base, or give HA a boost (I thought there was a promo that decreased movement costs by one but I can't find it - makes sense that a HA could go through a forest or hill better than a chariot though). Or give chariots 5 moves and Heavy.
  
• Different vision. Give HA Sentry
  
• Purpose. Give HA defensive bonuses
  

I'm sure there are other possibilities that I'm not thinking of.

The issue is broader then that, I think. With chariots requiring trade again, I like the balance with copper weapons - chariots require less tech investment, but workshops are more expensive, and they have worse defensive strength and a slew of little effects (withdraw chance, immunity to first strikes, an extra first strike and so on) which bias towards the more expensive/dedicated line of Horse Archers.
The issue arises post-iron weapons, in my opinion, where chariots are boosted to 7/5 and become superior to the more expensively invested, best mounted Tier 3 unit - and in this mod iron weapons are quite easy to come by, with our small games making getting the mines or Mercurians easier, and the Mercurians line improved also as well as the Smelting->IW path being considerably boosted also. In comparison, Stirrups->Warhorses is a very uninteresting line, and gives T3 units that aren't even the best mounted out there.

Thus, I think we want to nerf chariots a little so that they fulfill a slightly different role. I'm thinking take them down to 2 moves but perhaps adding a first strike. The 5-move plus heavy idea is intriguing, but I worry it would make them far too powerful on roads/for defence. As well as this, I will almost certainly remove the ability to use mithril weapons, to help champions out a little. (Incidentally, for some reason axes can use mithril weapons. I thought this was changed and will be removing it, unless anyone has any arguments for it?)

A few other thoughts:

1) I think Keelyn is a little too weak now. Her whole shtick was the synergy between puppets and Summoner. Rather than remove that completely, I'd suggest making it so that the puppets themselves don't benefit from the Summoner trait. So a Keelyn arcane unit can have two puppets going at once, but units summoned by the puppets only last one turn... she still effectively gets twice as many summoned combat units (rather than 4x), but can get other utility out of long-lasting puppets (doubling of other spells, extra range, etcetera).

Whilst I would prefer to boost summoner in other ways (as I have), I get that Keelyn is going to struggle to compare to her 3-trait father. My intention is for Keelyn to be something of 3/4 of Perpentech's power (roughly, it is hard to deal with these abstract things) so that you are sacrificing strength for stability/consistency as it were, so I think I like the concept of boosting her in this way. However...I can see this being ferociously hard to do, and possibly even requiring changing the trait entirely. The only way I can think of is to make UNITCLASS_PUPPET unaffected by summoner, and then removing it from (and/or creating a hidden identical unitclass for) puppets.

2) I'd also suggest preventing exponentiation with Twincast: either Twincast shouldn't apply to puppets, or the puppets shouldn't inherit it.

Agreed.

3) I like the idea of Overcouncil/Undercouncil being available to Agnostic civs, but I don't like putting them at Trade. Why not bring back Way of the Wise and Way of the Wicked from base FFH? If I understand correctly, those were removed because they weren't particularly interesting techs by themselves. Put them back in the tech tree with Overcouncil at Way of the Wise and Undercouncil at Way of the Wicked (maybe requiring Trade as well for the civics; makes sense that these civics should require both Trade and Philosophy), along with the goodies that used to be there.

Possible. Trade certainly has a lot - possibly too much - going for it at the moment, and the religious line is very strong. Don't look forward for having to figure out how to arrange the tech tree, though - maybe just make them require Philosophy as well?

4) Fawn nerf hurts all elves rather than Volanna specifically. I don't object to the change (fawns are really good units) but I think the synergy between Aggressive and Sinister is really strong. If you're going to keep that, I'd suggest the following:
Remove Rivanna (who I don't understand anyway), change Volanna to Aggressive/Summoner (parallel to Faeryl's Raiders/Arcane).

I...don't know here. I can't see any good way of pairing Volanna up, but I really want her to be a non-arcane alternative to Faeryl. Maybe AGG/IND, for all that doesn't fit at all? After all, IND isn't a particularly strong trait, and certainly weaker then EXP so the two traits might balance each other out a little. I also don't understand what Rivanna is supposed to be doing there.

6) Druids seem underpowered for non-Dwarven civs now. Which maybe brings Commune with Nature in balance with other prereqs for Divine Essence (Righteousness, Malevolent Designs, Theology), none of which seems like a particularly good deal. I'd suggest a big price cut for all of these techs (bringing them in line with Arcane Lore).

There are going to need to be some serious changes here, for sure.
I think, for a start, I'm going to make Feral Bond an alternative prerequisite (as a prereq on its own, not with priesthood). I understand that Sareln wanted to reduce the cross-pollination of the tech tree that was rife in the base game, but a) Feral Bond is weak currently, as is a lot of that end of the tree, b) it fits very well and c) it offers a route without going down the spiritual end of the tree, which is currently quite strong and doesn't need the boost. I think I will also reduce Feral Bond's cost to 1000b (same as stirrups) and reduce rangers cost to 120h (from 150h). Phew, little sidetracked here. Anyway, any disagreements?
So I agree that Commune with Nature, Righteousness, Malevolent Designs, Theology and Rage all could do with a price cut (sidebar: maybe Paladins go to Righteousness and Eidilons to Rage?). How about 65% of their current price? (CwN/Rage:6800->4420 Theo:7600->4940 MD/Right:7400->4810). Divine Essence could maybe also do with a bit of a cut, to be more in line with SoW. (maybe 9600->9000 SoW is 8800) What do people think about these changes? I'm a little wary of strengthening this area any more then it has already been done so, and also about being too liberal with tech prices.

Why does EitB remove the free trade route at Currency?

I'm not certain, but it's probably because new trade routes were added to a bunch of buildings and/or other techs to make them more appealing.

This. Whether or not it is valid is another matter - currency isn't looking too weak but I'd be happy to move another forward, say from guilds.


Also, quickly: Why do Marksmen require level 6 to upgrade to them? They aren't that good and given only longbows can upgrade to them, it seems excessive. Unless I get a good reason I'll make them buildable with Precision and Archery Range as prereqs.


TLDR: I am considering the following changes:

These are more definite:

• Chariots lose mithril weaponry.
  
• Axes lose mithril weaponry.
  
• Chariots require Trade.
  
• Chariots have two moves (down from three)
  
• Twincast doesn't affect puppets (only one puppet is produced)
  
• Feral Bond leads to Divine Essence.
  
• Feral Bond cost changed 1200->1000b.
  
• Ranger cost changed 150->120h.
  
• Rage, Righteousness, Commune with Nature, Theology and Malevolent Designs have their price reduced to 65% of current. (CwN/Rage:6800->4420 Theo:7600->4940 MD/Right:7400->4810)
  
• Marksmen buildable, require Archery Range and Precision. No longer require a level requirement to upgrade.

And these are worth considering but not firmed up yet:

• Something something Keelyn. Boost her puppetering abilities somehow. (Possibly make Summoner not affect UNITCLASS_PUPPET, revert the SPECIALUNIT_SPELL change, and figure out how to make Puppets last two turns unlike their summons - puppets lose unitclass_puppet, str 3->2 possibly?)
  
• Potentially bring back Way of the Wise/Wicked, restoring previous benefits and adding the appropriate councils. Loses points for simplicity/work. Maybe make the Councils require Philosophy and Trade instead?
  
• Something something Volanna/Rivanna changes. Potentially Volanna -> IND/AGG, Rivanna axed. Bring up illusionist change at some point for consideration.
  
• Move Paladins and Eidilons from Fanatacism. Paladins go to Righteousness and Eidilons to Rage?
  
• Divine Essence price decreased from 9600->9000, to bring in line with SoW.
  
• Free TR at Currency restored?

[Bobchillingworth]

I like the change to Axes RE: mithril weapons. Not a fan of removing them from chariots tho- that means really late-game mounted armies are just weaker all-around.

[Qgqqqqq]

Proposal: Governor's Manors

Premise:
To put it simply, the current implementation of Governor's Manors is silly. They are such a vital and powerful part of the civilization's appeal, that the concept of them costing 90h to Decius and 180h to Alexis/Flauros is silly, and makes him by far the most powerful leader of the 3 (in my opinion). I intend to make the cost consistent for each leader so it is removed as a factor.

Proposal:
I have two possibilities I am considering. In either, GMs cease to be a courthouse replacement, and have their cost reduced. In the first, courthouses are removed as buildings for the Calabim, and the cost is reduced to 140h. In the second, the maintenance reduction of GMs is removed entirely, and their cost dropped to 120h. Of the two, I think I prefer the second as it doesn't weaken Decius overmuch.

TLDR:
I am considering the following changes:

• Governor's Manors lose the maintenance reduction.
  
• Governor's Manors are no longer courthouse replacements.
  
• Governor's Manors cost reduced: 180->120h.

As an open question: What, if anything, should be done to increase Decius' viability as a Malakim leader?

[RefSteel]

And these are worth considering but not firmed up yet:

• Something something Keelyn. Boost her puppetering abilities somehow. (Possibly make Summoner not affect UNITCLASS_PUPPET, revert the SPECIALUNIT_SPELL change, and figure out how to make Puppets last two turns unlike their summons - puppets lose unitclass_puppet, str 3->2 possibly?)

Is it not possible to revert puppets to counting as summons (as in the exponential-problem base game) but change the event that gives puppets their casters' promotions so that it excludes any Summoner and Twincast promotions?

• Potentially bring back Way of the Wise/Wicked, restoring previous benefits and adding the appropriate councils. Loses points for simplicity/work. Maybe make the Councils require Philosophy and Trade instead?

I like the Philosophy + Trade idea, for what it's worth.

• Something something Volanna/Rivanna changes. Potentially Volanna -> IND/AGG, Rivanna axed. Bring up illusionist change at some point for consideration.

Why are we axing Rivanna again? She seems like she could be quite an interesting leader with the Summoner change....

The idea that Shaka's traits are now somehow overpowered is also kind of disappointing to me; Volanna strikes me as a lot like BtS Joao or ... well, Shaka of Zulu. She can be very strong early on the right kind of map, but she has to leverage her traits well or she'll increasingly fall behind other leaders. Of course I could be wrong, having little experience with EitB so far, but it's hard for me to believe that she's actually more powerful than e.g. Thessa, Rhoanna, Perpentach, Hannah, Averax ... etc.

[Qgqqqqq]

Is it not possible to revert puppets to counting as summons (as in the exponential-problem base game) but change the event that gives puppets their casters' promotions so that it excludes any Summoner and Twincast promotions?

Yes it is possible. However, ir wouldn't be balanced - twincast shows up very rarely and cutting 20% strength from all her summons is not enough to balance out her being able to create so many.

[quote]Why are we axing Rivanna again? She seems like she could be quite an interesting leader with the Summoner change....

The idea that Shaka's traits are now somehow overpowered is also kind of disappointing to me; Volanna strikes me as a lot like BtS Joao or ... well, Shaka of Zulu. She can be very strong early on the right kind of map, but she has to leverage her traits well or she'll increasingly fall behind other leaders. Of course I could be wrong, having little experience with EitB so far, but it's hard for me to believe that she's actually more powerful than e.g. Thessa, Rhoanna, Perpentach, Hannah, Averax ... etc.

[/quore]

I agree re: Rivanna, BTW, I don't think I want to axe her entirely. Her summooner trait is to anti-synergetic to keep however. I think I will change her to FIN/ORG, making her the "slow" leader of the Svarts.

And yes, Volanna is overpowered at present. Because as you say, she has a lot of initial power - but she isn't going to fall behind as an elf later on. EXP is probably the most powerful trait in the mod at present, and with the synergy of AGG it simply leaves her too powerful, especially compared to the other elf leaders.

[RefSteel]

Yes it is possible. However, ir wouldn't be balanced - twincast shows up very rarely and cutting 20% strength from all her summons is not enough to balance out her being able to create so many.

Ah - I misunderstood the way the Summoner trait works; my suggestion presumed that the double-duration summons were associated with the Summoner promotion on casters rather than the trait itself. ... In fact, would moving the effect there have adverse repercussions? (Or be desirable or possible in the first place?) My intention was just to find a simple way of implementing HK's suggestion, not to make up something new.

I agree re: Rivanna, BTW, I don't think I want to axe her entirely. Her summooner trait is to anti-synergetic to keep however. I think I will change her to FIN/ORG, making her the "slow" leader of the Svarts.

And yes, Volanna is overpowered at present. Because as you say, she has a lot of initial power - but she isn't going to fall behind as an elf later on. EXP is probably the most powerful trait in the mod at present, and with the synergy of AGG it simply leaves her too powerful, especially compared to the other elf leaders.

'kay; thanks for explaining. I realize balance is a lot more complex in the FFH universe than base BtS; thanks to Adaptive and Perpentach if nothing else, my instinctive assumption that a balance mod would try to make individual traits ~equal is faulty. In the interest of continuing to suggest things though: Would it be effective to switch Volanna to Agg/Cre and Averax to Agg/Exp[/Barb], or would that still leave her too strong? (Or make him too strong? ... although I can see him as Agg/Ind - with or without Barb - far more easily than Volanna...)

[Qgqqqqq]

Ah okay.


Now that you mention it, I think I do like that idea. Cre is quite far removed from Volanna's persona, of course, but then again, the same is true of Averax. Agg/Exp/Bar would leave him very strong in the early game, but he is likely the weakest of the Sheaim with the PG/summoner shifts, so possibly justifiable?
Anyone take issue with that change:
Volanna trait change Agg/Exp->Agg/Cre, Averax trait change Agg/Cre/Bar->Agg/Exp/Bar?

[Bobchillingworth]

Hmm. Being Exp would certainly make Averax better by most metrics, but Creative is supposed to help him get copper connected very quickly for a PZ rush, which is sort of his entire gimmick.

[HidingKneel]

Exp can help with connecting Copper too.

That said, I don't really like the idea of assigning traits which make no sense. Why should Rivanna be Org/Fin? Doesn't sound balanced either; seems to me there's a reason that the Svartalfar in base FFH have no economic traits...