[Spoilers] Old Human Tourist: Empress of Azteca

[Fintourist]

First of all, nice discussion here and an eye-opening sim from OH Here are some random thoughts to topics that I haven't replied yet:

Specialists:

Very good reminder by OH. We are not in a hurry to generate a Great Person, but we will still want to start soon. I think we want to start generating 2 Great Scientists, one of them for academy in Alfie and one for a 1-person GA so that we can switch into HR, OR + Bureaucracy and adopt a religion. (maybe produce a great person or two during the GA through Caste) Hmm.. When will we have Civil Service.. T120-130?

Azza attack + tech path:

Very interesting and difficult topic, we really should play the next 10 turns by the ear and follow Azza's development before deciding. Calendar and CoL provide both enormous boosts for our civ and delaying them in order to attack Azza with HAs + cats is a major trade-off. However, when it comes to war, speed is what counts and delaying an attack for economic techs reduces the chances of success.. So.. Immediate military beeline after Currency or maybe Calendar/Col first or some kind of a compromise between those two?? When I followed OH's sim I also wondered whether we want HBR before Construction.. The idea being that we take first cities through a quick 2-mover attack, then hold the ground for a sec and use cats (who follow a bit behind) for taking remaining cities without too big losses. As said, I'm having a hard time deciding between a peaceful but bold expansion to 20+ cities followed by guilds beeline and faster HA+cats-powered attack (an attempt to get us enough land for 30 cities asap)... Hmm..

Random stuff:

I'm hoping Barry Lyndon is putting at least some kind of a resistance and pindicator is not getting total city gifts. I fear that we will get a powerful northern neighbor.. If I have to guess, I would say that pindicator is winning a bit too easily and Barry is not too competent, but well, we know really nothing about the situation, so cross your fingers for total bloodbath.

Masonry -> Stone quarry -> chop or two into Mids sounds tempting if the wonder does not fall too early. I guess it's safe to assume that the wonder won't be too long available and as we currently have several extremely valuable techs that we need.. Shaving off an extra turn or two from our ETAs would be great.

[retep]

Oh guys I just wanted attention

Also if Azza has gone in a grudge mode now, which isn't that unlikely knowing Azza, that would keep both Azza and Mardoc behind you, for long enough so you could take both of then with knights. So a fast peaceful expansion isn't so bad.

On the other hand, I'm a lurker so what the hell I'm doing asking for safe expansion?

[Old Harry]

Is this reverse psychology Retep?

This evening I played through from Fintourist's t86 with a few tweaks and going CoL next. This is an infrequent save stack. I also sorted out the surrounding lands, so we'd better not diverge from the sandbox before then .

It seems like we're very tight on beakers to complete Currency eot89. In a couple of coastal cities we have some non-river cottages. I think we should be working lakes over those cottages... Lakes give 3 commerce forever, while over the first 10 turns the cottage gives 20 commerce less and only catches up after 50 turns. I think this is a diminishing-returns situation where our workers can do more important stuff and the cities can expand onto the cottages after the water.

We can get Masonry in one turn with wealth builds but I'm not sure it was worth it, CoL first may be better. Sacrificial Altars are GREAT! I didn't realise they cut the whip counter for previous whippings! This means we can afford to stack unhappy as we overflow into Altars since it'll disappear so quick.

SAs are also a good way to recover from whipping heavily to attack Azza (and whipping units that are inexpensive enough not to be bothered by the slavery nerf) so I'm not convinced which path is the better one yet. As you say we have to see what Azza (and Mardoc) are up to. If we do attack I prefer Construction before HBR as it takes so long for 1-movers to get to the front that the vanguard would be dead long before they arrive...

Other notes:
Markets are going to be valuable to us as we have Ivory and Whale, and can get Silk easily. They are just so expensive with the slavery nerf though . SAs are a bit gimped in RBmod, I never want to do more than a 2-pop whip, which is problematic with the more expensive stuff, so we might not end up getting the full value out of whipping.

I didn't try Calendar first yet, but that might be another useful experiment.

I slacked off on expansion really badly in this run .

Not sure if we need the lighthouse in Butterscotch until we increase the happy cap, so I built a galley instead so a scout can go meet new people .

[Fintourist]

Also if Azza has gone in a grudge mode now, which isn't that unlikely knowing Azza, that would keep both Azza and Mardoc behind you, for long enough so you could take both of then with knights. So a fast peaceful expansion isn't so bad.

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping here as well. Although maybe there is no grudge revenge and Azza just realized that he should not settle aggressive cities that he can't defend. 10 turns of enforced peace is also a long time that allows one to cool off even if one was pissed off initially.

Well

This evening I played through from Fintourist's t86 with a few tweaks and going CoL next.

Awesome, I should have time to check this in the evening. Getting an idea of various paths is extremely valuable

I also sorted out the surrounding lands, so we'd better not diverge from the sandbox before then

I'm already chopping a different forest near Hazelnut and you have yourself suggested changes that will take effect before t86!

It seems like we're very tight on beakers to complete Currency eot89. In a couple of coastal cities we have some non-river cottages. I think we should be working lakes over those cottages... Lakes give 3 commerce forever, while over the first 10 turns the cottage gives 20 commerce less and only catches up after 50 turns. I think this is a diminishing-returns situation where our workers can do more important stuff and the cities can expand onto the cottages after the water.

Our sandbox is behind the actual game in terms of beakers so I think we should be alright without too many adjustments.

On general level I agree with you here, cottages aren't thaaaat much better than financial coast so it's not a crime to dedicate our workers to other duties. Obviously we still try to get a solid cottage core growing, but we can be a bit flexible here.

We can get Masonry in one turn with wealth builds but I'm not sure it was worth it, CoL first may be better.

I heard that the unfogged island has a hut with Masonry in it..

Sacrificial Altars are GREAT! I didn't realise they cut the whip counter for previous whippings! This means we can afford to stack unhappy as we overflow into Altars since it'll disappear so quick.

Totally!

SAs are also a good way to recover from whipping heavily to attack Azza (and whipping units that are inexpensive enough not to be bothered by the slavery nerf) so I'm not convinced which path is the better one yet.

Yeah, exactly my problem.. Luckily we need to choose between two good options here..

Markets are going to be valuable to us as we have Ivory and Whale, and can get Silk easily. They are just so expensive with the slavery nerf though . SAs are a bit gimped in RBmod, I never want to do more than a 2-pop whip, which is problematic with the more expensive stuff, so we might not end up getting the full value out of whipping.

Yep, we definitely want a market in Alfie, but luckily our capital has some production power. E.g. in Cornelius and Butterscotch we might need to be a bit more creative and do some overflow tricks.

And agreed. 3-pop whips are terrible, 2-pop whips are ok in cities with granaries and 1-pop whips are great if our happiness situation allows them (SAs.. )

I didn't try Calendar first yet, but that might be another useful experiment.

Yeah, calendar can also be powerful, but only if worker and city micro is designed accordingly. Immediate spices+sugar connected -> extra 10-12 cottages/coast tiles worked.

Gotta run!

[Fintourist]

Turn 80

Cross your fingers that our C1 Axe does not lose against a barb warrior..




I made a judgment call and played it safely here and we should have more than enough to deal with the wounded barb spear. Hazelnut is more exposed in the east, but can get one extra unit chopped or whipped in time in case we get unlucky (Cheater Hater's culture should spawn-bust a decent area, but cross your fingers anyways)!

In the north we whipped our first lighthouse and all the whipping of recent turns is showing in our demos:




I'm not especially worried as this is pretty much our low point, we will add a new city next turn and it was clear that our cities #5-#8 will start slow... But still.. That rival best in food is impressive As said, not terribly worried yet: If neighbors or barbs don't screw us there will be many good things during the next 10-20 turns and I hope we remain competitive..

Azza's power is still below ours, which is good news..

[Fintourist]

Hmm.. I'm really starting to wonder whether we should take Alphabet instead of Currency. 400-beaker tech instead of 600-beaker tech. Assuming Cyneheard and Cheater Hater sign OBs we get 20 extra commerce assuming we are at 10 cities (3 commerce trade routes). Currency brings only 10 commerce until we have two island cities + the ability to build wealth (and markets). Negative aspect is that Cheater Hater and Cyneheard get the same benefit without the investment and unless we skip Currency we are delaying other key techs. Hmm..

[Old Harry]

Make them pay for it?

[Fintourist]

Make them pay for it?

Sure But that requires Currency

What's your first reaction?

[Old Harry]

I like it, we can spend our surplus hammers on research and get a 20% discount on currency. It delays going to CoL but it could speed up going down the military path... we should get it by t87 or so I guess, then we can hit construction and hbr about t96 and t102?

An exploring galley or workboat or two won't go amiss for getting trade partners, and with OBs they won't get stuck on their travels. What's the downside?

[Old Harry]

Actually alphabet is only 250 beakers...

Another path, after alphabet, instead of war or CoL, would be a music bee-line for the great artist and building culture. On the way are paya, soz, glib and the epics or the globe theater. I think Gertie with moai and globe would be an amazing city!

On a huge map glib isn't too attractive, as non-SPI paya isn't too hot, as non-AGG soz doesn't do quite as much for us, but it'll enable amphibious units later on... the trouble is where to build it? I was hoping to cottage all the hills at the capital, Daisy is never going to produce that many hammers, Gertie will do well, but I think suits the globe better. Hazelnut! It has plenty of food, can chop 4 forests into the wonder once borders pop and has loads of hills... it'll also help with Cheater hater's capital culture...

Pb13 spoiler

I think Mack went hbr-construction-music and still won the race, but I could be wrong.