EitB 0011 Wishlist/Discussion

[RefSteel]

Exp can help with connecting Copper too.

True - and I think giving a few more options to a leader who is regarded as a one-trick pony can only be a good thing.

That said, I don't really like the idea of assigning traits which make no sense. Why should Rivanna be Org/Fin? Doesn't sound balanced either; seems to me there's a reason that the Svartalfar in base FFH have no economic traits...

What is it about a given set of traits that determines whether they make sense for a leader? (Being new to the discussion of this mod, I'm a bit lost at sea.)

If it's flavor, Agg/Exp/Barb seems to me like as good a fit for Averax as anything (better than Cre certainly) and I actually quite like Volanna as a Creatively Aggressive Svartalfar. In terms of game mechanics, expanding across the world by taming the wilds or overrunning enemies sounds about right for a Cambion (half demon, half human) in charge of the Apocalyptic Civ. And of course Volanna's cities are relatively few and far between, without worrying too much about what's close to city centers since even her regular citizens are more ready than most to travel far afield (i.e. expand their cultural borders) to hunt game or bring in scouting reports in case of danger approaching. (The cheap Carnivals also fit nicely with the animals her huntresses bring in.)

I'm inclined to agree with you about Rivanna though; unless her nickname is changed from "The Wraith Lord" to "Faeryl's Personal Treasurer," it's hard to see her losing Summoner from a flavor perspective at least. And given what's been said above about the elf economy, adding Fin + Org on top of it does seem like it would just put a giant target on her back in the early game to prevent her from steamrolling things later on.

[Bobchillingworth]

I wouldn't worry about flavor for traits. Going by what's in the scenarios, where the formerly "minor" leaders are from, we have the following:


Volanna was a very powerful huntress who tried to help Faeyrl reunite the Elven civilization by force. She may or might not have succeeded. It is possible she was captured as a POW and subsequently turned into a Vampire. Her only trait was Aggressive, which she will retain.


Rivanna was a valuable Svartalfar commander. She tried to help Faeyrl reunite the Elven civilization by force, which may or might not have worked. She intended to betray Faeyrl, treachery Faeyrl was aware of. Her only trait was Organized, which she will retain.


Averax was a half-demon Sheaim general serving Terbyn the Archmage, who was attempting to cast a ritual that would destroy all of creation, allowing his demonic masters to remake the world to their liking. He was also allied with the Infernals. He was killed in action. His only trait was Aggressive, which he will retain.



There's a whole lot of room for interpretation regarding their characters and backstories, going by the official material. Ref has already done a great job fleshing the Svarts out. Perhaps he could make a story explaining why Averax is also Expansive

[Bobchillingworth]

In defense of "Rivanna Classic" though, I'd like to point out that, while she hasn't yet won a game (like half the other leaders), she has been picked a couple times since v9 came out- clearly some people see value in playing as her as currently stands. She's certainly more popular than, say, Hannah. I don't see anything wrong with just leaving her alone- no reason to fix what isn't obviously broken.

[RefSteel]

In defense of "Rivanna Classic" though, I'd like to point out that, while she hasn't yet won a game (like half the other leaders), she has been picked a couple times since v9 came out- clearly some people see value in playing as her as currently stands. She's certainly more popular than, say, Hannah. I don't see anything wrong with just leaving her alone- no reason to fix what isn't obviously broken.

Note also that the folks who picked her did so in v9, prior to the Summoner research boost in v10.

There's a whole lot of room for interpretation regarding their characters and backstories, going by the official material. Ref has already done a great job fleshing the Svarts out. Perhaps he could make a story explaining why Averax is also Expansive

Hey, thanks! I was actually trying to write something up for Averax already; that's why I thought of him. The idea that he's expansive hardly needs any explaining though. The question his story has to answer, apart from his own background, is an intrinsic timing problem with the story of the Sheaim. (If their 'pedia entry is accurate, they can't reasonably exist until other civs have been well-established and in contact for a significant period of time after the end of the Age of Ice. Tebryn could explain it by magic, but his story is about how he became ... what he is ... instead, so I have an idea for Averax ... which I'll hopefully post eventually. We'll see.

[Bobchillingworth]

Regarding mounted units, I think chariots are best left alone. I dislike the idea of nerfing one unit (which nobody seems to think is actually too powerful on its own merits) just to make another look more appealing. My suggestion is to simply give HA units (and UU equivalents) a large bonus against Recon troops. Hunters, Rangers, Assassins and Beastmasters are all fairly common units on the FFH battlefield, and currently the only thing that gets any sort of bonus against them is an expensive Empyrean unit much better employed for other purposes. Making HA the exclusive counter to the Recon line gives them an important niche- they might not be built in every game, or even most, but that's fine- they just need to fulfil a unique role, so that people have a reason to build them at all. After all, I'm not sure anyone has built even a single non-UU LB in the history of RB FFH MP, but LB don't need a buff, nor champions a nerf, because they do have a unique function.

[GermanJoey]

Have you guys ever talked about making chopping and whipping in the early game more of a thing in EITB, ala BTS?

[Qgqqqqq]

So I've actually read this several times, but I've gone through a very busy patch, so haven't responded till now.

Anyway, I think it is clear that, as Bob said, any of the trait combinations CAN work, it is just a question of which ones are the most balanced or work the best for the civ.
Averax: I am only looking at EXP/AGG/BAR vs. CRE/AGG/BAR. It seems clear that expansive is a stronger trait then creative, especially for the front forward strategy of his civilization, as well as fitting better lore wise. So the question here is does he warrant the buff?
(Oh and Ref, if you write anything on Averax, be sure to check the scenarios and/or the forums first. I'm pretty sure I saw a Magister post somewhere that said he was conceived in Lord of the Balors...)
Rivvanna: I am considering ORG/SUM or ORG/FIN. I do think that she is a much more viable leader with the Summoner changes, but if I'm honest, I wouldn't pick her in her current state, because of how weak the Svart arcane game is (which I have considered altering to make the Illusionist an optional alternative to the mage, but I am leery of any boost to the Svarts). Bob has pointed out that she remains a good leader for a combined arms movement, but I'm still not sure. Personally, I disagree that Fin would be too powerful - she would be incredible late game, but also possibly the slowest leader setup out there. Currently I am inclined to leave her as is, at least until there is more data.


I am reconsidering my chariot changes, for sure. As well as some of the FB changes, after Bob assured me people do I fact build rangers.

Jojo, I don't think so? I certainly wouldn't be inclined to alter whipping much, as it's strength is advocated by a few players currently for one, and secondly because the FFH meta is more based around keeping a standing army en extant then is BTS, a feature I am fond of. As for chopping...its not something I feel strongly on by any means, but I'm happy with the current implementation, and truth be told I like that chopping is more incidental then a means onto itself. Do you have a particular reason for wanting this? I'm certainly willing to consider it.

As is my wont, here are a couple of other ideas to be thrown out for consideration:
- Hannah is much weaker then Falamar and hasn't been chosen in a long while for it. What do people think about making her Crazy? (Courtesy of Bob)
Kuriotate Palace requiring two cities to build? (Courtesy of Gekko)
- Keelyn probably needs some sort of bone. Whilst the puppet change is being looked at, how about she gets Ingenuity?
- The Luchuirp, now that their Mud Golems have had a price boost, need a bit of a buff. How about changing one of their (useless) Golem buildings to add commando? (Bob)
- The Favored promo given by Spiritual currently offers the same xp benefit as Potency (30). The plan was for it to be 20, and given SPI strength, I think I will revise it down.

[RefSteel]

Averax: I am only looking at EXP/AGG/BAR vs. CRE/AGG/BAR. It seems clear that expansive is a stronger trait then creative, especially for the front forward strategy of his civilization, as well as fitting better lore wise. So the question here is does he warrant the buff?
(Oh and Ref, if you write anything on Averax, be sure to check the scenarios and/or the forums first. I'm pretty sure I saw a Magister post somewhere that said he was conceived in Lord of the Balors...)

Don't worry; every time I start writing something about Averax, I follow the trail for a little while but then just get fed up and stop. I think I just have to accept the fact that the Sheaim will never make sense to me in any context and that I can't write stuff for them. Hopefully, someone else who likes them (and/or can make sense of them) a lot better than I do (or can) will take a crack at him.

(Note there's no reason anyone should have to solve my timing-of-Sheaim-appearance problem, naturally; it was just an approach I hoped I could use to help them make something vaguely resmebling sense to me.)

In fact, actually ... in searching for something related, I noticed Bob called dibs on writing his background stuff years ago in another thread!

[Bobchillingworth]

Hah, oh man, I have zero ideas for anything to write about him :P


The Sheaim as a civilization aren't too hard to figure out though. One leader is bored of her eternal life and is willing to work with demons to end it by any means necessary. The other is being compelled by demons to destroy the world as part of some plan which is never really explained. As a civilization they seem to have a mostly-functional society, albeit heavily militarized and under the totalitarian grip of an evil theocracy. Going by Os's flavor text, refugees make up a fair portion of their society, so living in Sheaim territory is at least preferable to an active warzone :P

I imagine that undead and bound demons fulfil a lot of the same roles as Golems do for the Luchiurp.

[Qgqqqqq]

Hahahaha this is why I shouldn't split the civilopedia thread - half my replies aren't about the actual modding.