[SPOILERS] Barteq and his small, poor and sad little world

[Barteq]

Here we go again (now for real ).
Lurkers and other guests (if they aren't other players of course ) are always most welcome. Feel free to write down your questions, sugestions, ideas or other thoughts in my thread .

PS Sorry for some language mistakes (english isn't my first and I suffering a little bit because lack of practice).


Rest of this post will be technical information for me.

Game server: caledorn.no-ip.org:2059 / caledorn.ddns.net:2059 / 87.252.70.182:2059
civstats: http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2737

List of players:
retep - Washington (Cha/Exp) of the Inca (AGR/MYST, Quecha/Terrace)
suttree - Catherine (Cre/Imp) of China (AGR/MIN, Cho-Ku-Nu/Pavilion)
Azza - Suryavarman (Cre/Exp) of America (AGR/FISH, Navy SEAL/Frontier Post)
zanth/Bacchus - Victoria (Fin/Imp) of the Ottomans (AGR/WHE, Janissary/Hammam)
GermanJoJo/Lord Parkin - De Gaulle (Cha/Ind) De Scandinavia (FISH/HUNT, Berserker/Trading Post)
Barteq - Hannibal (Cha/Fin) of the Zulu (AGR/HUNT, Impi/Ikhanda)
Gavagai - Gandhi (Phi/Spi) of Rome (FISH/MIN, Praetorian/Forum)
Gawdzak/BaII - Zara Yaqob (Cre/Org) of Byzantium (MYST/WHE, Cataphract/Hippodrome)

ToW changes:

Traits
FIN: +1c on tiles with 3c or more
EXP: Double speed granaries, +2 health (no harbor or worker bonuses)
CRE: only +1 culture in all cities (still +100% production of library, theater and colosseum)
SPI: unchanged
ORG: unchanged
IND: unchanged
PHI: +150% gpp, double speed universities
IMP: +100% GG points, +50% settler production, and double speed markets and banks
CHA: +3 happy in all cities, -25% XP requirements (no happiness from monuments or broadcast towers)
AGG: Removed, replaced with AGRICULTURAL (AGR): +1f on tiles with 4f or more
PRO: Removed, replaced with PRODUCTIVE (PRO): +1h on tiles with 4h or more, +50% worker production, +50% workboat production

Civilizations
Inca: Terrace loses culture, requires Agriculture instead of Pottery.
India: Fast Workers cost 75h, not 60.
Egypt: War Chariot is a chariot replacement with 2 first strikes.
Mali: Skirmisher is a 4 strength archer replacement with zero first strikes.
Sumeria: Starting techs changed from Agriculture/Wheel to Agriculture/Mysticism.
Zulu: Impi is a spear replacement with 50% withdraw chance.
America: UB is the Frontier Post, a Grocer replacement with 1 free merchant.
Germany: UU is now the Riesengarde, a Grenadier replacement with 14 strength.
Russia: UB is the Research Institute, now a university replacement with 1 free scientist.

Techs
Agriculture & Hunting cost 40.
Mining & Fishing cost 50.
Mysticism & Wheel cost 60.
(Previously, Fishing was 40, Mysticism was 50, and Agriculture was 60.)
Metal Casting Cost reduced to cost of Alphabet (from 450 down to 300).

Units
War Elephants reduced to 7 strength.
Swordsmen gain the Combat 1 promotion instead of +10% city attack. Praetorian is now just a 7-strength swordsman.
Scouts require no tech (so all players start with one) and have 1 move. They gain +1 movement point at Hunting.
Workboats require no tech. (You still need fishing to work water tiles.)

Wonders
Great Lighthouse: only +1 trade route per coastal city, not +2.
Colossus: +2c to water tiles only in that city.

Buildings
New building: Wharf. Requires Compass. Costs 80h. +3xp for naval units, +1c from water tiles.

Wonder/Building Resource Doublers
All wonders/buildings that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.

Corporations
Sid’s Sushi food per resource reduced from 0.5 to 0.2, and culture per resource reduced from 2 to 1, and maintenance per resource reduced by half.

Nukes
ICBM cost increased from 500 to 1500.
Tactical Nuke cost increased from 250 to 750.
Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.

Naval Mechanics
Blockade range reduced to 1.
Circumnavigation mechanic is removed.
“Naval Initiative” mechanic: Naval units that attack with their first movement point from a water tile get +15% attack.
New Naval Promo: Vigilance I. +20% defense.
New Naval Promo: Vigilance II. Req. Vig I. +20% defense.

Espionage
Active missions removed.
Great Spy bomb value reduced by half: 3000 to 1500.

Demographics:

2000 – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
4000 - Guilds, Wheel, Alphabet, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction, Steel, Radio, Satellites
6000 - Mathematics, Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
8000 - Fission, Flight, Bronze Working, Machinery, Assembly Line
10000 - Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Industrialism, Rocketry
12000 - Gunpowder, Rifling

2000 - Walls, Castles, Dry dock, Forge, Factory
4000 - Barracks, Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works
8000 - Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point

1000 – Warrior, Quechua
2000 – Axeman, Spearman, Archer, Chariot, Galley
3000 – Swordsman, Phalanx, Skirmisher, War Chariot, Immortal, Horse Archer, Catapult, Caravel
4000 – Jaguar, Praetorian, Maceman, Pikeman, Longbowman, Crossbowman, Keshik, War Elephant, Galleon
5000 – Samurai, Cho-Ko-Nu,
6000 – Musketman, Knight, Frigate, Ironclad, Transport,
8000 – Musketeer, Camel Archer, Conquistador, Cannon, Destroyer, Submarine
10000 – Rifleman, Grenadier, Machine Gun, Carrier
12000 – Redcoat, Cavalry, Battleship
15000 – Cossack, Fighter, Jet Fighter, Bomber
16000 – Infantry
18000 – Marine
20000 – SAM Infantry, Gunship, Artillery, Stealth Bomber
22000 – Navy SEAL
25000 – Tank
30000 – Panzer, Mechanized Infantry
40000 – Modern Armor, ICBM

[Barteq]

Here's my starting location:

It's quite good, I think:

+
I can get +1 food if I put my city on sugar,
3f-1p resource to work from the start
and result of this two points - 4f-2p possibility from start (quick worker or quick 2 pop city)
"small gold" (furs) in my capitol - nice early science boost
2 very quick hunting resources with forest on them (+1p)
2 happines recourses (1 quick, 1 late)
nice scientific capitol location
many forests in sight
2 rivers around
inland starting location (I can put cities in every direction around my capitol) + no fishing and work boats needed from the start
much more grasses than plains

-
no fresh food on best starting location (sugar)
and result - no copper or trade connection without roads
relatively poor productions capabilities (not the best location to make world wonders)
animal husbandry recourse - expensive technology needed quickly
lack of 6 food resources (2*5f) - sugar can even that
only 2 grass/river locations

[Barteq]

Draft - part 1

Picking position:
My position in snake pick was 3. It is a very good place, but when I saw first 2 choices, than I would like to be a little bit lower (5 or so).

Leader or nation:
It is always hard to decide, which of those 2 will be more importent to pick first. Leader is more importent, but there are few more good options to choose from (especially, when numer of players isn't to high). I decided to wait for first 2 players choices. Both took leaders, so I can pick my nation as 6 - few very good options shoud remain - so I went for a leader. Other factor that was decisive - I don't install ToW mod yet, so I couldn't run some tests with different starting techs .

Leader traits and my starting position (AGR and PRO are banned, so 9 still remained):
"FIN": +1c on tiles with 3c or more - nerfed (slow down a little bit), but still most powerful trait; thanks to new wharf building not losing much of it's power even on water locations.
FIN was always strongest on flat locations and it's exactly what I have here.

"EXP": Double speed granaries, +2 health (no harbor or worker bonuses) - nerfed (too much for me), no workers production bonuses means that this trait isn't interesting for me any more. Granary bonus is always great, but not enough...
EXP could be nice addition to my capitol (lack of fresh water on best location) and quicker granary could give me 9 pop very soon. But still, there are few much better traits to choose from.

"CRE": only +1 culture in all cities (still +100% production of library, theater and colosseum) - nerfed, but still very ineteresting choice; very good early game bonuses.
It's always very hard to predict CRE value without seeing neighbourhood first.

"SPI": unchanged - good, but it's very hard to make use of it full potential; need much of micromanagement in a late game; this game could be over before it really become usefull and show it's power, so it's rather not for me.
SPI is better on richer maps (food is needed to make good use of specialists), so it should work fine on this map.

"ORG": unchanged - very good trait; I read some of other opinions in PB 20 and I'm really shocked, how underrated is this treat. Many cheaper buildings (really importent ones - courthouse, lighthouse), much lowers costs (civics - it's working from almost start of a game - and cities - quicker courthouses). Very easy to manage (for less expirience players). Can create a really deadly combo with Aztecs or HRE (I would really loved to try Hammurabi of Aztecs on ToW mod).
ORG gives much more when there is much space to settle and when the game is played on high level and both of this conditions are achieved on this map. Better than FIN on an early game, but is still a little bit worse (especially thanks to much more flexibility that FIN gives you). Lack of oceans at sight make this difference bigger (lighthouse production bonus isn't useful).

"IND": unchanged - this trait become very useful on spatial maps, when you have time to calmly grow. I prefer to take wonders from my neighbours rather than building them by myself, so it rather isn't best choice for me.
IND should be very useful on this map, but still much depend on a presence of stone or marble.

"PHI": +150% gpp, double speed universities - boosted, so it could work really great on a rich map in a food recourses, especially when you manage to get a piramides in your hand. With new AGR trait it could make a really deadly combo.
Map should be very good for PHI, when there will be comparable amount of a food recourses to PB21 (and it's really possible). It looks very powerful trait in a right hands.

"IMP": +100% GG points, +50% settler production, and double speed markets and banks - boosted; this treat was quite good before this change and now looks really strong. Quicker settlers are only way to accelerate early expansion and GG bonus is always nice.
Imp would be one of the best traits in this game, if not emperor costs. When you go to quickly with your expancion on such a high level of costs, you can easily destroy your science.

CHA: +3 happy in all cities, -25% XP requirements (no happiness from monuments or broadcast towers) - boosted quite nicely; can't tell exactly how strong this trait is until you know how many of happiness recourses you will possess. Second important factor is game level (happiness bonus to every city) - higher make this trait better, of course. Additionally ToW mod make it best military trait thanks to the quicker promotions.
On this map CHA is very intersting choice, cause of emperor level, but fur and sugar in my starting location makes it a little bit weaker.

[Barteq]

I want make an official comment about other people choices until I don't see both leader and nation, but a couple feel a little bit strange for me.
I only write this - I'm a little bit surprised looking on choosen nations strating techs, cause I was expecting, that our starting position will be quite similar to each other. In contrary, they must be much diffrent and there could be much more water than I'm was expecting (especially looking on my part of this world). I'm really courious about next choices.

I must run some tests first on ToW mod, before I write a little bit more about my nations preferences, but one look on this map tells me, that hunting nations would be most welcome choices for me (but rather not necessarily a must, cause hunting is cheap technology and I could research it as first).
All I tell for now, that without a proper testing I will took Zulu, Russia or Persia (in that order; all hunting nations) - nothing was taken yet .

[Commodore]

So tests give you a strong preference?

[Barteq]

Hard to say.
My tests gave me some interesting informations, but without seeing my neighbourhood, nothing is sure (how many agri resources are around) . Hunting, mining would be the best start for me, that is obvious, even without making any test. Agri will delay me a little bit (few turns, depends on neighbourhood as mentioned, but shouldn't be a worst tech too), but high level of costs makes too quick expansion a very risky strategy (high maintenance costs could completly stop your science, if you're not careful) and having Zulu UB will help me to cover this gap in a little longer perspective (I should be able to maintain one city more thanks to it in an early game).

[Darkringer]

I'm aware that you had the sixth pick of the nation as the pick was going back to you, but I'm curious as to why you chose to go after Zulu over another Civ. I won't deny that grabbing Hunting is the better choice considering the Deer start, and will give you a clear route to Animal Husbandry for the Sheep tile once borders expand. But I'm still not entirely sure what you planned with Agriculture for the second tech.... I suppose I really just want to know why you went with Zulu as opposed to a Civ like Russia, who gets Mining for the Bronze Working availability right off the bat. Did the Unique Unit and building play a part in that pick as well?

Yes, I am picking your brain, and yes I plan to do it more often, if I may. I do plan on sticking with just this thread and this report, so I can ask questions like those without incurring that Spoiler wrath that seemed to go on in other games. Not without your consent first of course.

I do have a few comments to make about that starting screenshot you put up, but I'll leave it for next time. I will say that I'm seeing some very interesting things there...

[Barteq]

I'm back from a long journey and in a free moment I will try to write next 2 parts (about nations and short note about other players choices) of my draft analyses.

Second part there should anwser your question Darkringer and you are always welcome in my threat .

Short notice, before making my first move. On 99% I will settle on my starting location. I give 1% to a place 1N from my current location, if my scout (he will go 2N) find something so astonishing, that will make me fall from my sit from joy (hmmm, I think that simultaneous sight of a one shining gold and a one precious gem could do that ).

[Darkringer]

Then I shall put on my slippers and pull up a chair and the

On 99% I will settle on my starting location. I give 1% to a place 1N from my current location, if my scout (he will go 2N) find something so astonishing, that will make me fall from my sit from joy

Ironically enough, this is one of the things that I was going to talk about. I would argue that going 2 North from that position might not be too bad of a choice either: You still keep the Deer in the first ring, the Sheep stays in the second ring, and while you are missing out on Furs, which could hurt, it not only might provide a solid second city site in the near future, but may also bring resources into play from the uncovered tiles. Well, that's what I would do at any rate. With the Scout (And the two moves it gets from Hunting) moving two North will provide all you need for such a thing, it can reveal what you need to see to easily decide whether you want to move or not.

I was going to suggest moving the Scout south, and the Settler north and doing it that way, but that quote of yours has somewhat turned me away from that idea. After all, the first thing you're after is somewhere to put this Settler: There's plenty of time to scout out the South before the second Settler comes into play about 20-30 turns from now, or whenever it's coming out. The reason I suggested that idea, is because I wanted to know if there's a food resource down there. That's really the only reason. If there is, I think the second city is more-or-less planned...

The plain tiles on the North isn't too great... But since you're Financial, they'll make excellent cottage sites I think. I'm just also hoping there's more grasslands up there and not more plains.

The other part of the post I wanted to address briefly is techs and where to start. In no particular order, here's my take on it:

Mining - Bronze Working: I don't think I've ever seen a game where Slavery wasn't a strong option. And having Bronze is never a bad thing, especially with the Unique Unit. Plus chopping forests, never a bad thing!
Pottery: Being Financial, Cottages will be much better available sooner rather than later. Not to mention that it brings in Granaries, which is arguably the best early-game building to have in terms of Growth, which all civs want at some point.
Animal Husbandry: With Hunting AND Agriculture, that's a 40% boost to researching this tech, if I remember my tech costs correctly. As well as that, it enables the Sheep to be improved. Perhaps something to consider among the first 2-3 techs.

... Huh... When I said I was going to make a list of techs I think should be among the first to get, I actually thought I'd have 6-7 to list out... Well, there are other techs that's worth considering, like The Wheel and Archery/Horseback Riding, though I think they can be left until maybe the 3-4 tech researched at least. Starting with The Wheel as the first tech has never gone well from what I've seen, and I've always regretted it myself. Yes, it allows you to hook up resources and the like, but really, when are you in need of hooking up resources? ... From my (lack of) experience, it's typically because of either having Bronze, or when I'm moving the second Settler to the second city site.

Ultimately it's up to you of course, you're the one playing this after all. But I figured I'd throw in my own initial thoughts on the matter and see if you're thinking the same way I am. Wouldn't surprise me if you're not, I tend to be a bit dim with planning stuff like this out. How do I strategy?

I'm going to shut up now, as I think I've said enough, and allow you to take the reins of your thread once more. Eager to hear what you think about everyone else's choices.

[Barteq]

TECHNICAL POST

My dead lions shows me this, before reaching their sad end:

Jungle gems

Island (at least it looks like one) of more than one crab

And this is a small world map. Both location are rather far away from mine.