[SPOILERS] Barteq and his small, poor and sad little world

[Barteq]

Next move and next resource. This time ivory, very importent one and additionally very nicely located.

Now this will be really great spot for a second city . Without creative I wouldn't even dreamed-of having second city with 3 good resources and 3 forest in the first ring plus "hard mountain" (+1 hammer) to set up .

My capitol city from inside:

Two remarks about moving my capitol location - it's hard to say, how this map will looks like, but moving is always very risky - two reasons - 1) map creator could give everybody some strategic resource like copper (or horses) close to their starting location, so you could have it outside your culture border, when you move. 2) moving could significantly reduce gap to one of your neighbours; in this game there are at least 3 aggressive players (maybe even more - on 7 players only!!! - really big chance to catch one) and you rather don't want to provoke any of them to attack you, cause even if you manage to defend yourself, loses will be huge - this will be in a last part of my draft analysis.
To get this wheat and jungle sugar, I would need to sacrifice 1 turn for moving, furs and 2 turns in production of furs - bad deal, at least for me.
Thanks to the forest deer and my sugar I will be probably first in building a worker (maybe someone will be equal, if he has a forest dear and "hard mountain" - nobody has 6 food as I - look at the demo (and I believe, that nobody will start on "hard mountain" with stone or marble and has a forrest dear ).

Demographics:

What I could easly read from it so far:
1. GNP 20 means that one of creative leaders is starting on a resource which is giving +1 commerce in capitol (e.g. incense) and on river tile (you need both for +1 bonus) and he has fishing (could working on a water tile - Azza) or works on oasis (Azza, Suttree, Gawdzak/BaII).
2. Production 4 means, that first workboat could be build in 8 turns time.
3. Crop. Nobody has same start combination as me (I only has 6 in crop). Rival worst 3 is logical cause of production (no 5). Rival average 3 is interesting - it look like, that most of the players is working on plains or 1 food hills (eventually food resaurces on no food tile).
4. In land area worst player has 8k and best 9k - it means, that players who took fishing nations, probably have got only 1 water tlie in their 1 ring.

[Commodore]

Appreciate the update! That does seem like a fairly spread out second city, how does the micro look to hook it?

[Barteq]

I admit, that I intentionally delay last turn for a few hours (you want know that now, but sorry for it guys, whenever you read it ). I was able to sit for a few minutes and finish quickly my turn (there isn't much to do anyway ), but I needed some time to make a very crucial decision about my research - should I continue for a bronz working or should I go for a animal husbandry first (it was a last turn, when I could do that, to synchronize my worker with my sheep at my capitol (it sound a little strange, I know, but I don't want to lose to much time thinking, how to say it wright ).

And here I come up to an answer for your question Commodore.
Because my potential second city spot is looking great, I make an obvious conclusion that I should build my first settler very quickly.
So before my test I made a two assumptions - I won't be waiting for a third worker before settler for sure and I don't want to take to much risk, so at least 1 warrior will be needed before I finish my settler (I want mention about it later).
Now I took 4 main path for my test and here are best option I find for every of them:
1) animal -> mining -> bronz -> (30t) / worker 2 -> settler -> city (35t) - worst option
2) animal -> mining -> bronz -> (30t) / settler -> worker 2 -> city (30t) - much better than first one
3) mining -> bronz -> animal -> (27t) / worker 2 -> settler -> city (31t) - my pick
4) mining -> bronz -> animal -> (27t) / settler -> worker 2 -> city (29t) - quite interesting too

I choosed to go with option numer 3, because of the second built worker (and there are many good tiles to work for him). Difference in science is from working on my furs (can't build and use pasture earlier).

[Darkringer]

I'll admit, when you put up the potential second city site initially, my initial thought was 'It's a good site, maybe a bit too far away for the second city though.' Curse your scouting info for making me change my mind. Whether it's best for the second city site or not, I won't deny that it's a cracker of a place to put a city whichever way you look at it. Definitely that's a place to put a city: On a hill, food bonuses and indeed that Ivory. Plus it's on a river and has forests to chop as well! The lack of missing out on that Sheep tile 3 tiles North from that spot, while a shame, I don't think is that big of a deal. After all, you're not missing out on a Sheep resource specifically since the Capital already has it. I'm actually concerned that if you keep scouting like this, you're going to find about five Gold resources all clumped together.

I pretty much agree with everything you said concerning your Capital and why you placed it there, no issues with it. Though it wasn't until I actually looked at the Demographics screenshot that I realized why you were talking about nobody having a Crop Yield better than you. If you recall, I said that the Settler being on a Sugar tile right from the start was curious and led to the possibility that everyone else did. Now granted, this may actually still be the case, as the worst is 3 Food, which works in nicely for the Capital having 3 Food, and working on a 0/?/? tile. Whether that's what's actually happening or not, I'm not entirely sure. In either case, I think you've summed it up quite nicely: Those not working food per-say is likely working Hammers, or is possibly building a worker and getting a tile yield which gives them the best benefit, likely with a Commerce tile going on.

The comment on Land Area is a good one, but it is a possibility that a non-Fishing tech civ settled near water as well? Well.. I'm just assuming of course. Here's the reason why: I've done a little bit of math concerning how many players have one Water tile in their initial 9 tiles. The rounding is a bit off from what I can tell, and I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong. There are 8 players, and nobody has more than one water tile in their initial nine, otherwise that Rivals Worst would be lower than 8k...

EDIT: Okay, I worked out what I was doing wrong. I was including you in the average, which you're not supposed to. So I can confirm that five civs have one water tile in their initial nine tiles! Simple rounding and calculating informed me that five civs with 8k points, and two civs with 9k points, dividing by the number of players involved, equals the 8,285 average that's there.

So, this proves a couple of things:

- There's a good chance that the Fishing civs HAVE started near water, where Work Boats would be a viable opening start. (I'll leave if it's the best option to your opinion, Barteq)
- This means that there's at least two civs who have settled near water without Fishing. That's not as bad as I make it sound, but it will follow onto a point I will make in a moment.

This, at the very least, has confirmed, Barteq, that everyone has different starts. After all, there isn't exactly water anywhere near your start besides the river tiles... Perhaps this means you're somewhere in the middle of the map? Hmm...

Finally, I've seen CivStats for the turn of... 7 I think it is? And there's been some score increases that may be worth noting. Which I'm fairly certain is all First-Tier Research being completed!

- Naturally, you got Mining. So no big surprises there.
- Gawdzak completed a tech. Considering he started with Mysticism and The Wheel, I was actually wondering if he'd go for an early religion. But the tech coming in is too soon for that. So the obvious answer is that he's picked up some kind of Worker tech of some kind. Maybe Agriculture or Hunting? Though Mining wouldn't be too much of a stretch either.
- Gavagai also got a tech. He started with Fishing and Mining. I wager either Agriculture or Hunting thanks to a Food resource that's on his start.
- Retep completed a tech as well. He started with Agriculture and Mysticism. My bet is probably on Mining, if not Fishing, for the same reason you went for it.
- Finally, Azza. He started with Agriculture and Fishing. I'd say he has all he needs for bolstering his start, so I'd pencil him down for Mining.

I know there's better ways of finding out by using the Demographics and other bits and pieces, but that's just too much work that I cannot commit to right now. All I know for absolute certain, is that they're all techs on the far left of the tree. The remaining three civs have yet to score beyond 29 still. So if their score doesn't increase to 35 next turn, I suspect they are going for a second-tier tech. Either that or they're shuffling their techs about...

So, Barteq, it sounded like you weren't sure whether you wanted to go to Animal Husbandry or Bronze Working as the next tech. Perfectly understandable as both techs have their good uses for this start you've got. Made any progress on that choice? Also, I was wondering what your plans are for scouting now that you have a future city site planned out. Maybe try to find a third?

[Barteq]

I notice one mistake in my previous reflection - when you are researching technology that has bonus from other, already know by your civilization, you get a bonus, that can be shown in GNP. So 20 doesn't necessarily means that you have additional commerce in your capitol (e.g. someone can discover bronz, animal, early religion...).

Note about my research plans:
mining -> bronz -> animal (or wheel if I decide to go for a rush - unlikely) -> wheel (animal) -> pottery (mysticism) -> mysticism (pottery)

I'm not planning to go for an early religion or early wonders (I will think about potential wonders, when I see marble or stone). Many quite aggresive players around, situation is looking good, so why should I take unnecessary risk ?
Small remark - my leader could be recognized as a potential technology leader, so someone can think, that is better to stop me before I will start outrunning him.

Short update about current situation.
Few new interesting things showed (after next moves of my scout and culture growth of my capitol).

North:

Nothing interesting here. Only spice at sight.
I will explain what this '?' means in east description.

South and West:

West lookin very poor, at least for now. South is much more interesting. Big see, that's closing very nicely few locations to me for later . Possible maoi spot show up (and very good indeed). I must later check this peninsula??? on south-west. One thing I was afraid on the start is that I will have a trouble with health, but it's starting to look good in this matter now, that 2 different water resources are closely spotted (not mentioning land resources diversity).

East:

Another possible city location on south part. Now about '?' - that's my alternative city placement option.
Scout will try to go around my land (first north, west later - on the edge of my fog of war).

[Barteq]

Short note about my southern region - I would be pleased even more, if there was a liitle bit more land tiles, but one things will be really good - I don't need to scout this region in early game, cause there rather want be any possible threat coming (I see every land tile over there). Additionally, I don't need to hurry with settling in that direction - I can secure good locations in other directions first and I don't need to go quickly for sea techs .

Remaining answers that wasn't written in my previous update:

I'll admit, when you put up the potential second city site initially, my initial thought was 'It's a good site, maybe a bit too far away for the second city though.' Curse your scouting info for making me change my mind. rolleye Whether it's best for the second city site or not, I won't deny that it's a cracker of a place to put a city whichever way you look at it. Definitely that's a place to put a city: On a hill, food bonuses and indeed that Ivory. Plus it's on a river and has forests to chop as well! The lack of missing out on that Sheep tile 3 tiles North from that spot, while a shame, I don't think is that big of a deal. After all, you're not missing out on a Sheep resource specifically since the Capital already has it. I'm actually concerned that if you keep scouting like this, you're going to find about five Gold resources all clumped together. neenerneener

I pretty much agree with everything you said concerning your Capital and why you placed it there, no issues with it. Though it wasn't until I actually looked at the Demographics screenshot that I realized why you were talking about nobody having a Crop Yield better than you. If you recall, I said that the Settler being on a Sugar tile right from the start was curious and led to the possibility that everyone else did. Now granted, this may actually still be the case, as the worst is 3 Food, which works in nicely for the Capital having 3 Food, and working on a 0/?/? tile. Whether that's what's actually happening or not, I'm not entirely sure. In either case, I think you've summed it up quite nicely: Those not working food per-say is likely working Hammers, or is possibly building a worker and getting a tile yield which gives them the best benefit, likely with a Commerce tile going on.

2 short remarks:
- in most of my cities (there are exeptions - but that is matter of cities specialization) two food resources are more than enough for me - this additional food resource want be wasted, cause another city will take it.
- on the start of the game I want to expand as quickly as possible, so I often prefer to sacrifice long terms benefits for short ones (especially it concerns first two, three cities) and other thing I must consider is a fact, that I need to have a monument (plus 10 turns of waiting for culture growth), to use recources from second ring.

PS Minimal requirement for my second city is one forest and one food resource (at least 4) in city first culture ring.

The comment on Land Area is a good one, but it is a possibility that a non-Fishing tech civ settled near water as well? Well.. I'm just assuming of course. Here's the reason why: I've done a little bit of math concerning how many players have one Water tile in their initial 9 tiles. The rounding is a bit off from what I can tell, and I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong. There are 8 players, and nobody has more than one water tile in their initial nine, otherwise that Rivals Worst would be lower than 8k...

EDIT: Okay, I worked out what I was doing wrong. I was including you in the average, which you're not supposed to. So I can confirm that five civs have one water tile in their initial nine tiles! Simple rounding and calculating informed me that five civs with 8k points, and two civs with 9k points, dividing by the number of players involved, equals the 8,285 average that's there.

In this mod you can build a work boat without a fishing, so yes, it is possible, that a non-Fishing tech civ settled near water.
EDIT: Possible suspect - retep.

Finally, I've seen CivStats for the turn of... 7 I think it is? And there's been some score increases that may be worth noting. Which I'm fairly certain is all First-Tier Research being completed!

- Naturally, you got Mining. So no big surprises there.
- Gawdzak completed a tech. Considering he started with Mysticism and The Wheel, I was actually wondering if he'd go for an early religion. But the tech coming in is too soon for that. So the obvious answer is that he's picked up some kind of Worker tech of some kind. Maybe Agriculture or Hunting? Though Mining wouldn't be too much of a stretch either.
- Gavagai also got a tech. He started with Fishing and Mining. I wager either Agriculture or Hunting thanks to a Food resource that's on his start. nod
- Retep completed a tech as well. He started with Agriculture and Mysticism. My bet is probably on Mining, if not Fishing, for the same reason you went for it.
- Finally, Azza. He started with Agriculture and Fishing. I'd say he has all he needs for bolstering his start, so I'd pencil him down for Mining.

I know there's better ways of finding out by using the Demographics and other bits and pieces, but that's just too much work that I cannot commit to right now. All I know for absolute certain, is that they're all techs on the far left of the tree. The remaining three civs have yet to score beyond 29 still. So if their score doesn't increase to 35 next turn, I suspect they are going for a second-tier tech. Either that or they're shuffling their techs about...

Because of very similar research potential of everyone now, it's quite easy to assume who discover what on very early turns (if you want you can hinder it on a few ways, but usually you want to discover early technologies asap, so it's rather rarely encounter).
I will make a table for that later, but for now, it's easy to guess that first three discover agriculture or hunting and retep (and I) mining or fishing. Last three still doesn't have anything, so probably animal husbandry or bronz working.

Azza - hunting
Gawdzak/BaII - hunting/agri - depend on food resources
Gavagai - hunting/agri - depend on food resources
retep - mining (possible fishing)
zanth/Bacchus - animal
suttree - animal/bronz (if point jump on turn 11(12?) than animal, after 15? bronz)
GermanJoJo/Lord Parkin - animal

[Barteq]

Technology table:

retep	agri	myst	mine 7t
suttree	agri	mine	animal 11t
Azza	agri	fish	hunt 5t
zanth/Bacchus	agri	wheel	animal 12t
GermanJoJo/Lord Parkin	fish	hunt	animal 12t
Gavagai	fish	mine	agri 5t
Gawdzak/BaII	myst	wheel	hunt 5t	mine 11t
I	agri	hunt	mine 7t

I will update this table until everyone will have strategic technologies (bronz, animal) - I want to know what to expect from possible aggressors and victims . Later it's getting very hard to control.

PS There is a slight chance, that Gawdzak/BaII took some cheaper technology, but I give a much bigger chance for a mining/fishing because of a overflow. Fishing is less likely, becuase of a weak strating techs, they rather need to secure their safety quickly.

Edit Corrections after verification of power status in demographics.

[Barteq]

Scouting report:

EAST:

I don't go much further, so only 2 new resources founded - corn (without source of a fresh water) and incence (desert) plus jungle elephants - nothing worth a sin .

NORTH-EAST:

Nice cow on the end of the river. It looks like, there should be another sea. Next jungle sugar shown itself.
Scout will go west now. No animals so far (and let it stay that way - potential death of my scout would be a very big problem for me).

CAPITOL:

Everything going according to my plan. Camp will be ready soon and when my city will growth to 2, then I will make another worker.

DEMO:

Two nations built fishing boats (someone on turn 8 or 9 - Azza or Gavagai probably and GermanJojo and Lord Parkin's team on turn 9 or 10).
It's still possible, that everybody could have 3 crop capitol as I have.

That does seem like a fairly spread out second city, how does the micro look to hook it?

I don't give you complete answer. I will lost few workers moves, that's a fact, and I need a second worker before I settle on that spot, but benefits should compensate everything .
Additionally, there aren't any rivers between capitol and this tile to disturb my moves and no one was located nearby , so bigger distance shouldn't trouble me a lot .

[Barteq]

No animals so far (and let it stay that way please - potential death of my scout would be a very big problem for me).

Isn't that ironic, don't you think?

Two comforting facts - maximal defence bonus (75%) and it's not a bear, but even if my scout survive, but will be badly wounded, it still be a big problem for me after all .

[Barteq]

Fight report:

4 turn will be wasted (if something new won't show up) , but it could be worse, so I want be complaining:

Capitol:

Deer is ready, now it's time for my furs.

PS I forgot, that Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry is 2k growth in demo (power). So it is quite easy to predict, what was discovered so far (I made corrections in my techs table):
Gawdzak/BaII - hunt 5t, mining 11t
Gavagai - agri 5t
retep - mining 7t