[SPOILERS] Muffin's spoiler thread of delicious baked goodness and half baked ideas

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I have just got back in and am tossing around ideas in my head - basically costs on this map are killer. I rolled a toro lake small map, and 2 size 1 cities 4 tiles from the cap is 7ish gold. Hence why sumeria with early cheap courthouses have gone. (He will totally combine it with either zara or mehmed, but I reckon Zara)

But this is also tied with me not knowing exactly how much the map has been altered. 5 on a standard rolled map gives space for 4-5 cities each. If a lot of the ice/tundra is made habitable there is easily scope for more like 8-9 cities each where maitainence will really start to bite.

Even though org for cheap courthouses is nice, it won't affect much else with no real need for lighthouses and I want to kill the game well before factories! The cheaper civics will be nothing compared to upkeep costs here. Exp is nerfed a little with the tile setup - it will be a 10 turn worker anyway if settled in place.

Basically atm I am wanting to pick a civ first and tossing up byzatines or HRE. Hunting start is viable here with a 2/3/1 tile after a camp, so a quick second worker and on to founding another city. HRE would play the long game and try and get rathauses up early, whereas byzantines would beeline cataphracts...

However maybe I am thinking too much into this. I can defintely take one or the other even if I pick a leader here.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Edit why did I think byz was hunt/myst? Its wheel/myst... I did know that somewhere. That makes them much more attractive now!

[Commodore]

I tend to make maps with maximized viability; Bob/Jowy/Retep have all played my maps before, but I added the public note about tundra/ice removed.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Oh we are snake picking, without all the fin leaders and a couple of civs it still holds value I think.

I should explain my reasoning behind Byzantines more I feel. Without fin civs and on this map type, tech pace is slower. Hence a UU has a longer window. Realistically I feel this will play more like epic speed compared to what we are used to re tech costs. Guilds can be got to very fast if you only go up to writing on top of the tech tree.

The only other civ that would come close would be agg rome, which would have a huge window of opportunity. However even though I rather like their UB I think their actual utility is less, especially when you consider any land I take would cripple my research at that stage and make me a target to be maced for a fast teching player later.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Thanks commodore, so I should assume that there will not be any uninhabitable areas of map essentially?

[Commodore]

Generally; a dead zone or two will happen.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Well it's nice to know that I am providing fun for the lurkers. I guess it doesn't give too much away when my phone tells me I have been quoted in the lurkers thread I just need to make sure that I don't follow it thinking it is a reply! Also sorry for any spelling mistakes, I am having to cover 4 wards this weekend due to sickness on long days so I am a little sleep deprived!

For the lurkers, I quickly bashed out a few thoughts up top but was mindful that I was holding up the snake pick, so just got it done ASAP. For a leader choice I will go into a little more detail.

As I mentioned above, org is a red herring on this map. It will not help much with costs, and essentially will save hammers on courthouses only (people always seem to forget this) although every little gold does help.

Also as I said exp will not help with the first worker (assuming a SIP on the sugar) so is somewhat of reduced utility. However now I have chosen a wheel/myst civ growing to size 2 to still get a bonus is an option. Later on it will still hold up as strong as ever with hammers saved on granaries and further workers plus the health bonus is not to be sniffed at midgame (essentially a free aquaduct with the utility to also build one in the city)

Fin is banned save wang who is already picked.

Pro is useless and to be ignored

Cha is pretty meh. Early happy is nice and it is good if you land henge, but otherwise it is decidedly dull. When you need huge cities you should already have monarchy and starting to pick up happy resources, and until then the whip should control happiness. The less xp is nice but not exactly game changing either.

Imp will almost certainly kill anyone with high maintenance costs here, and I always find it has limited snowball effect as it is hard to keep on top of worker production when settlers are so cheap.

Ind could be powerful. I am sure that the marble/stone will not be easily accessible and fail golding wonders would be a good way to keep the economy afloat. Plus if you end up being the only one everyone else is scared to go for wonders (?fued slingshot possible). The only issue is you might become a juicy looking target with a few wonders.

Philo could be powerful also. That first GP out at double time and 40-50% more over a game, but at the same time it is easy to not use correctly and never gain any traction from. Using a beeline strat if you get the right GP then you gain a huge amount of tech, although a guilty pleasure of mine is to settle GP in the cap

Agg I always feel is underrated. It has a lot of use in multiplayer games is being foreboding. Why attack agg when you can take on a non agg, and actually helps in attack. It's best boost is early wars pre fued, when you can have shock axes with a barracks giving 75% odds on a combat 1 axe. It also is good in the draft where with the half xp a free promo is worth much more. However, this does not have great synergy with a horse UU

Spi is really, really strong, but requires very good micro to leverage well. If you are clever you can switch into slavery for 5 turns, whip out all your cities then switch back to caste to run artists to get a first border pop quickly. Easily switch to war civics if attacked. Not have to worry about the early switch into slavery timing and monarchy switches. It is also essentially a free happy face with religion. Having said that, since golden ages have prevented anarchy I have always felt it has been hurt a little. Also I just am not an able enough player to use it fully. (single player wise it can even be used to please a different neighbour for trades every 5 turns. Very versatile) Of note if you are running a crashing eco, you do lose the ability to use anarchy to prevent unit disbands in all out war mode.

Cre I generally find to be overrated, but the more crowded it is the more useful it is in controlling contested territory. I tend to view it as a crutch that stops people really thinking about how they plant their cities because they will get a border pop in 5 turns. Then also even though the library is cheap it loses the usefulness of being a source of culture also. I'm sure many player will be pulling their hair out for this but with the beeline strat I do not expect to build more than 1 library for GPP. Also a 'Full of resources' map is more likely to have a few good tiles in a cities initial tileset thus making cre less useful again.

So essentially here I can say traits I don't really want : fin/pro/imp/cha

And ones that I think will be powerful here : Ind/philo/exp

And ones that I am ambivalent about on this map/byzantium : org/agg

And ones that I should probably value higher : cre/spi



Sadly there is no Philo/Ind leader - they would certainly be a very powerful pick and perhaps a true combatant to the cottage economy in base BtS.

So Peter Phi/Exp and Bismark Ind/Exp stand out to me here currently. Ghandi Phi/Spi is another good shout as he can get a lot out of intermittant caste switches and slaving.
I am swaying more towards playing Bismark here as I will be trying for metal casting fairly early thus it gives good synergy with cheap forges, and I reckon I could get a fued slingshot if no-one else went Ind. Also it would allow me to build wealth in essence fail building wonders.

If microed well a philo leader, especially ghandi would probably be stronger but you can't go wrong with a wonder or two.

I'm open to any comments or critiques that people have and want to say!

[Commodore]

Sounds sane to me; you'll have a lot to overcome with those starting techs but Bismark is solid.

[mackoti]

I realy like your comments, and welcome to RB.
I dont know anithing about the map , but usualy this maps are larger then the one we usualy play in the gspy lobby with far more useful land.So becasue of thta i think you have completly right about AGG rome , you cant have te economy prepared to deal the amount of land you'll get.

I think you are realy understimate ORG, becasue you want a realy large empire so you can win , and there nothing matches to ORG.

About IMP, i find it very useful if you have 2-3 cities very good to expand faster having some special resources(gold, silver, fur), otherwise not that strong.

about bismark, oh yeah is a very solid leader ,evn betr then some of fin leaders(thats a personal opinion and many dont agree).

Good luck and see you at work.


PS: building just 1 librarie,until when i might ask?

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I don't think the byzantine starting techs are that bad commodore - the wheel is a solid tech. It does help that I have seen the start and know that I don't need fishing or an hus for my only food, but wheel/agri is very popular. Admittedly I do not have access to animal husbandry right off the bat, nor access to bronze but in terms of saving worker turns it is a solid tech to have.

I have counted it out in my head today and I reckon with a SIP I can get a settler out before turn 30, admittedly with only worker and size 3. That seems pretty decent play. That is even without any help of faster worker production with exp! I could go 2 workers but I struggle to see what else they would be able to be doing as it would be a long detour to get to bronze and the tech schedule is pretty tight with agri hunt and an hus all needed to hook up the 3 power tiles in the first ring. But I will talk more about opening micro in another post.

In terms of leader selection, mackoti almost swayed me to peter with talking about the lush land we are likely to have thus making a SE rather viable. However this requires investment of hammers for slots to run these or going out of slavery, niether of which I am to keen about. Plus I don't want to need to build universities. I still think the synergy of a guild beeline with cheap forges is a good mix. Hopefully depending on resources these will also be able to net me a few extra happy as well!