Cheater Hater, Ruler of the Modbreakers

[Cheater Hater]

T128 Report:
My spirits have been uplifted a bit, mainly thanks to stuff that's happened after my turn ended--there's a lot stuff I can tell from the tracker, and let's cover that first:


The newest thing here is that Pindicator finally declared on Gawdzak-bot, so we should lose another civ soon (though unfortunately that won't put a player into the lurker pool). The portal tells a lot more is happening though--AT burned a yuris city, Bacchus burned a HAK city (even though HAK presumably has a military he used to kill Jowy), and most importantly to us, FinHarry has taken/burned two cities from Azza! This makes something we'll see later a lot less threatening

Anyway, let's check the rest of the event log and see what's happening:


Oh.


As you can see, Plano is a mess again--I should have waited a turn to move up my troops, but honestly, I think Whosit moves his stack back regardless. I forgot to get a picture of my stack, but it's really beaten up, and I moved it back to the old forest spot--I hope Whosit decides to just keep his troops in Plano, in preparation for a presumably impending dtay and/or Krill/novice attack--again, the worst possible situation is dtay attacking me. Next, let's check the northern situation:


This is interesting--we now know dtay has Knights, but only seeing the one is a surprise and means either the main portion of the stack came from a different direction or Prairie Village has almost no units (only 2 units, and no losses). I wish I could afford a unit to scout in that direction, but I have a feeling I'll need most of my units to take Nowhere for certain, even though it still doesn't have that many units:


Still just the axe and spear, but those walls are troublesome, especially if I don't want to lose all my HA's taking the city. Let's see how all my units are doing after all my promotions:


As you can see, I have a lot of units, and thanks to my new Medic, all the HA's will heal by next turn (though the 1-movers won't, since they moved this turn). The question here is whether I move my troops up this turn, or wait a turn or two and heal the 1-movers. I think that's going to be based on what I see next turn at Plano actually--I think I'm going to make peace when I take Nowhere, but I want to see what's going on with Plano first--if dtay never shows up I'll probably just leave Plano alone, but if he does attack, I'll try to stay in the area and snipe the city. I also should do a quick sim, to check how many losses just attacking with all my 2-movers next turn incurs, and if it actually takes the city

Next, let's look at domestic stuff:




A single whip here (the Ikhanda in Shandalar), but I'm assuming there will be more whips soon--Muraganda will whip its Forge next turn I think, Rath might next turn as well, Mercadia will soon (though I might build the Courthouse first actually), and Ravnica will 2-pop whip the Settler soon. The other problem here is Whosit's Galleys finally showing up again--I might lose some seafood soon, but my Galley is heading through the canals so I can start developing around the former South Plano.

Next, let's do a bit of demo analysis:


My stats are still crappy--I bumped the slider down 10% so that explains the GNP at least. My plan is to head for Calendar next, which basically everyone else has, so my GNP shouldn't be horrible during that--I don't know how long it'll take to get Calendar, but hopefully I can deficit it at a reasonable pace.


And that's one of the reasons I was disheartened--FinHarry's power just spiked last turn. Thankfully, now that we know it's heading primarily to fight Azza, I can somewhat breathe a sigh of relief. Also, my power was surprisingly flat after the Angle Bay attack--and Whosit's wasn't, even as the graph doesn't contain the Prairie Village attack. In addition, dtay's power still hasn't gone down much yet--Whosit must have had few units in all those cities dtay took--it appears he's kept 4 now! Not much important with the other graphs, other than Whosit's massive decline.

Finally, let's do something different--let's scout!


I've scouted most of pindicator's territory at this point, and my scout's running out of stuff to do--the western border is Cyneheard, not WilliamLP as I thought, and last I checked Cyneheard doesn't have Alphabet yet. Maybe I'll be able to find someone new in the north, after Barry dies. I'm not sure what I'll do with the scout next though--I actually wish I still had a scout in FinHarry's territory since Azza has Alphabet now (and FinHarry should be opening up some lines ), but I don't know when I'll be able to afford a unit and the Galley necessary.

[Ceiliazul]

Could anyone take my position and be in the upper-portion of the standings 125 turns in?

Yes I think it's possible you could be in the top half, but not likely in the top five, with your start. In one alternative universe, you could have impi choked Whosit and probably knocked him waaay back into the ancient age while you entered classical. Your defense against whosit in the first war could have been different too... the sustained Hanging Gardens try was a bit alarming to us lurkers.

But I don't say that to dishearten you, your position was determined as much by Whosit's choices as by yours. I have the benefit of lurkervision too, so it's hardly fair to expect you to see the same opportunities.

[Cheater Hater]

Could anyone take my position and be in the upper-portion of the standings 125 turns in?

Yes I think it's possible you could be in the top half, but not likely in the top five, with your start. In one alternative universe, you could have impi choked Whosit and probably knocked him waaay back into the ancient age while you entered classical. Your defense against whosit in the first war could have been different too... the sustained Hanging Gardens try was a bit alarming to us lurkers.

But I don't say that to dishearten you, your position was determined as much by Whosit's choices as by yours. I have the benefit of lurkervision too, so it's hardly fair to expect you to see the same opportunities.

It's late, and I'm not going to look back on all my posts from that time right now (especially before I play the turn that just rolled--obviously that isn't happening tonight ), but I don't think my play during the war itself was that bad--I only restarted HG once I felt I had stabilized, right?

With regard to Whosit's choices, let's go back to a couple critical points, and think about what the top-tier player would do:

1. When I saw Whosit's power building up, am I supposed to build up (maybe to a somewhat lesser extent) to defend the possibility of Whosit attacking, or continue my farmer's gambit hoping he goes somewhere else? I built up a bit, but a lot of my defenses were focused in the south from what I remember, while Whosit attacked the north--that feels like an unlucky guess in part, but that may just be rose-colored glasses.
   
2. After Whosit takes/burns two cities, what should my plan have been? I chose to torpedo my economy, build up my military, and fight Whosit back--I still don't know if that was right or not, and probably won't for another 50 turns or so. I don't see any other realistic possibilities though--doing nothing keeps me in the past and gets me killed if Whosit comes back for more, and the only other target that was close to realistic was FinHarry, and while I did have a large power advantage for a while, having to rely on Galleys likely would have made the attack too slow, and we've just seen that FinHarry could build a massive amount of power in the blink of an eye (maybe not as severe if I would have attacked, since they hopefully wouldn't have had Knights, but the point still stands).
   

Again, hopefully people don't see this as arguing--I'm just trying to have a discussion and learn more

By the way, thanks for coming back to the thread Celiazul, I haven't seen you post here in a while--do you just like being near the top of a new page (at 50 posts per page)?

Edit: Also, is it weird that a bunch of the leaders have clumped in the same general area? Obviously, I have no clue what the rest of the world looks like (other than the wars spoiled by the portal), but it feels like I know a majority of the leaders just based on score (BGN and GermanJoey being the big exceptions)

[Cheater Hater]

T129 Report Part 1: Foreign/Domestic
So Barry is finally dead, meaning we're one step closer to all the scores fitting on my screen. That also means my relations screen will be a little less cluttered, right?


Of course not

BRickAstley + Mardoc: Wang Kon/Spain (Fin/Pro)
Wang Kon is interesting--it's like Pacal now (Financial+cheap Granaries), but it's not nearly as good. As for Spain, the Conquistadors are still fine, but I don't get why Citadels weren't buffed or changed--for that matter, why were Castles nerfed in the first place? Granted, I rarely see them (the tech paths I generally see/go to obsolete them before we can build them ), but they still seem fine for what they are :/

So BRick+Mardoc--is BRick still part of the team? I haven't been paying much attention. I didn't see where contact was made though--let's see who they know:


This is interesting as well--they knows the western civs, pindicator, and a lot of the eastern civs, but not Ruff--my guess is that they're west of FinHarry and Azza, and only were able to meet me because Azza got Alphabet recently--that doesn't explain how they know dtay and especially Krill/novice though--I guess he met me in the north, as we'll see in a second?

Since I met a new civ today, let's do a lot of foreign-relations stuff, starting with the big picture:


FinHarry and Azza are still at war, and no one's made peace with Whosit yet. Other than that, not much is new--I didn't go through all the individual relationships though

Next, let's do a couple city updates:




This mainly shows the results of the newest wars--FinHarry kept both cities so far, and pindicator kept Barry's city. Speaking of wars, we have a mid-post update from the portal: The Black Sword has burned a Furungy city! So much war!

Now let's do something different--let's go to domestic stuff next instead of the military roundup. Part of it's that I don't feel like playing Paint today, but I actually have a lot of domestic information today. However, we'll start traditionally with the north and south shots:




For all the information I got, the domestic scene this turn isn't that interesting on the surface--I whipped Muraganda's Forge and did a bunch of micro, but there isn't much interesting happening. One of the annoying things is that Kamigawa will be unhappy for a turn, since the last bit of whip anger goes away in two turns while the growth happens this turn. The other important thing shown in these pictures is the situation in the north--I'll cover it in detail when I do the military stuff, but while you can see Krill/novice's chariot hanging around, what you can't see is dtay's Knight on the tile 1W of Tarkir. Surprisingly those are the only units I've seen so far, but again, we'll cover that more in the military roundup.

Next, let's go back to the finance advisor, now that my finances appear to be a little better:


Honestly, it's a bit of a wash--my unit cost is a bit down, but Tarkir has added to my costs. I also have a decent amount of income, and Tarkir isn't even out of revolt yet (and it gets to work a bunch of cottages). Next, let's check something new--the domestic advisor:


This gives you a look into my cities, without me taking ten screenshots--f there's any cities you want to take a look at, just ask, and I'll get a picture next turn

Part 2 will have all the military strategy stuff (or at least as much strategy as "sit and wait for dtay to make the first move" can be), as well as the demos.

[Cheater Hater]

T129 Report Part 2: Military and Demos
Let's start with the more interesting front: up north around Tarkir and Nowhere:


As I touched on, the most important thing here is that we have visitors watching our battle--both dtay and Krill/novice have a single sentry unit observing the northern battles. Importantly, those are the only units I can see--not enough to make a dent in Nowhere, and certainly not enough to make headway against me. However, dtay still could move a bunch of units into the area--I didn't scout the east since my Impi was being used for healing purposes. If dtay shows up with more than one or two units, I have to attack next turn--here's what I have that's able to attack next turn:
1 WE (C1 Shock)
5 HA (1 C2, 4 C1)
1 Chariot (C2)
2 Impi (1 C1)
1 Axe (damaged, CR1)
That should be enough to take the city, even without bombarding the walls, but I'll probably have to lose some HA's to do so--if I can wait for some of my units to heal it'll be better. I should be running sims, but I'm lazy--I'll run sims when I have to take the city (aka when dtay's troops show up).

Next, we go to the much more boring front:


No, you aren't missing anything by not seeing the standard Impi move to the hill--no sign of any troops from Whosit, dtay, or Krill/novice. Of course, even when my troops heal, I have no chance of taking Plano--dtay can't get down here soon enough

Now to demos:


Yes, my GNP is garbage again, but that's partially because I went down to 0% science again. If I go to 100% science I actually jump up to around 22nd, and at 40% (close to break-even) I was around 26th I think. More importantly, my food and production are very respectable, and my score's even recovering as I catch up on some techs. In addition, don't forget Tarkir comes out of revolt next turn, and that should improve my stats by a ton. My power also has improved a bit, and we'll see how that decreases after FinHarry and dtay spend some troops. I also have no clue how the other wars are going--how much they built up, and how much they're spending to make gains.


I don't what happened here--apparently my losses at Angle Bay weren't realized until this turn? Seriously, telling exactly when gains/losses will be shown on the graph is some kind of arcane sorcery.




These graphs are showing improvement at least--I'm still below everyone I know that I have graphs for (which is still a self-selection bias), but I'm getting closer to the pack--I almost touched Ruff's GNP graph a couple turns ago, and now I'm close to passing Krill/novice's production graph.

Speaking of graphs, I almost had a scare--FinHarry must be getting courthouses, since they've starting to put points into me and I'm dangerously close to losing their graphs. I changed things a bit so I put a couple points in them before I switch to a new target--I still get plako's graphs in two turns at least. After that I need a new primary target--Mardoc is where I'm thinking the points should go next, but if FinHarry continues to put points into me, I might have to put more points in them and get my new graphs at a slower rate.

That should be it for this turn--I went surprisingly into depth this turn, but is there anything else the lurkers want me to cover? Do you want a look into any of my cities, to get a peek at my micro? Maybe a detailed Espionage roundup? A detailed look at my sims? Maybe rarely-seen demos, like Top Cities or Victory Conditions? Anything else I'm not thinking of? I really appreciate anyone's input

[Cheater Hater]

T130 Report:
So new troops didn't show up around Nowhere, but something else happened that forced my hand--Nowhere grew to size 2. As such, I needed to attack now, since I'm assuming Whosit would whip another unit next turn. Still, I was worried for nothing--I forgot to get the combat logs, but I only lost 2 C1 HA's total:


I didn't take a full annotated screenshot of the northern front, mainly since I'm already starting to disperse my troops--I know I want to keep one archer each at Regatha (the renamed Nowhere), Tarkir, and the re-founded Mirrodin, but I don't what I want to do with the rest of the units--I'm starting to move HA's down to the southern front, but I don't know if I really want to push on that front:




Yes, troops from dtay and Krill/novice are finally starting to show up, but I have absolutely no idea where most of their stacks are--remember, they both have burned/taken multiple cities. I think I'm going to wait a turn or two (probably until most of my units are healed), see if anyone else has shown up, then look into what my next move would be if I make peace.

Next, let's check the domestic picture:




The most important thing is that Tarkir coming out of revolt (and starting with the border pop, that was a nice surprise--presumably that's because I had popped the border before Whosit took it) lets me see inside Prairie Village--and I see 5 Knights, including the Sentry Knight that was hovering around Tarkir last turn.

Getting back to more domestic matters, I did a lot of whips this turn--Ravnica, Rath, and Shandalar all got whipped to power out infrastructure, and I think I'll whip Kamigawa next turn as well. As such, my score dropped a lot, but I have a ton of growths happening in the next two turns--8 total, not counting a possible growth after Kamigawa's whip--so my score should recover quickly. I also can start building settlers now--obviously Ravnica is going to overflow into the settler, but I'm still not sure where I'm building the next one--Kamigawa and Theros are the obvious choices, but they both need to grow--maybe Lorwyn, since it doesn't need a Courthouse urgently? That's probably the best.

The other new domestic thing is that I'm not going to Calendar at all--instead I'm going to Monarchy. There are a bunch of reasons for this--the techs are mostly interchangeable in function (Calendar gives me 2 happy from the Spices and Silk, while Monarchy gives me 1 from the Wines and at least 1 from Hereditary Rule once I revolt into it), but Monarchy is both cheaper (enough to actually 3-turn it--or at least it was before I whipped away all the pop and needed to bump the slider up a notch, but I should still be able to finish it in 2 turns after bumping down the slider next turn) and leads to much more important techs--Calendar only leads to Astronomy, while Monarchy leads me down the Feudalism/Guilds path, which not only gives me important military units (though don't forget I still need Iron Working to build Knights), but Feudalism gives me a boost on Civil Service. Right now I think my "default" tech path is something like Monarchy->Feudalism->Civil Service->Iron Working->Calendar->Guilds->Machinery, but we'll see how urgently I need Knights (and how fast I can research techs once I get all my new cities grown and developed).

Another important detail I haven't focused much on is getting my first Great Person--wherever it's coming from, I probably should get it soon, but not necessarily that soon--I want to have Civil Service by the end of it so I can revolt into Bureaucracy, but I don't know if I need much else (other than the obvious HR revolt, as well as a possible religion).

Now to demos:


Unfortunately those whips knocked out a bunch of my water tiles, the silver, and a couple Ravnica cottages, so my GNP's in the tank again--again, I'll be getting a lot of those back soon. It also hit my Production, but my forges should get some of that back at least.

The other graphs are in the same place as always--not even the power graph really has any changes--so this is the end of this relatively short report. Again, if there's anything else people want to see, just ask and I'll try and get it.

[Cheater Hater]

Wait, what's going on with Krill/novice? I wouldn't characterize this as a 4-person turn split, since it goes me->Whosit->dtay and Krill/novice--unless Krill/novice is attacking dtay this turn? Is that what's happening? I certainly hope that's what's happening!

Edit: Another thought--how much of this was caused by me taking the first half of the turn split? Was I wrong to do the "nontraditional" thing of waiting until the second half of the turn to declare? I felt that I was trying to play my turns quickly to get turns rolled, even though playing the second half of the split probably was the best thing to do. Is there a way I could move to the second have of the turn split (letting Whosit double-move me, since I don't think anything extremely damaging could happen in that state), or would that just leave another person waiting for Whosit to play?

In addition, while I'm here, there's a couple things I can touch on:

• Add yet another war to the pile--wetbandit has taken a city from Qgqqqqq
  
• FinHarry has started to play their turn (enough to make a whip), but there's no sign of more Azza combat--though they haven't ended turn yet either.
  

[Cheater Hater]

I played, but the ups and downs of my experience are certainly trending downward right now. Still no sign of dtay or Krill/novice by Whosit (though Krill/novice did found the gems city), and Whosit's using his Galleys to harass my seafood. As such, I finally offered peace--if he gives me 50 gold I'll walk away now, and to be honest, I'll probably take straight peace if that's Whosit's counter-offer.

More rules questions! Would any of the following would be allowed, based on the split rules:

• Asking Whosit out-of-game if he accepted my peace after he plays, and if so, logging back in to adjust my tiles/make sure I'm working my seafood (since we wouldn't be in the split anymore, but I couldn't tell without asking out-of-game or logging in outside where the split would be)
  
• If Whosit doesn't accept peace but has a counter-offer, can I log back in and immediately accept the counter-offer (then make the noted tile changes) (I don't think so, but it doesn't hurt to ask)
  

[Rowain]

More rules questions! Would any of the following would be allowed, based on the split rules:

• Asking Whosit out-of-game if he accepted my peace after he plays, and if so, logging back in to adjust my tiles/make sure I'm working my seafood (since we wouldn't be in the split anymore, but I couldn't tell without asking out-of-game or logging in outside where the split would be)
  
• If Whosit doesn't accept peace but has a counter-offer, can I log back in and immediately accept the counter-offer (then make the noted tile changes) (I don't think so, but it doesn't hurt to ask)
  

No outside discussion so no to Nr 1.
AFAIK Whosit can only play after you ended turn right? so you wouldn't be able to alter tiles. But else I don't see anything in the rules that forbids you to accept a peaceoffer and act accordingly.

[Cheater Hater]

More rules questions! Would any of the following would be allowed, based on the split rules:

• Asking Whosit out-of-game if he accepted my peace after he plays, and if so, logging back in to adjust my tiles/make sure I'm working my seafood (since we wouldn't be in the split anymore, but I couldn't tell without asking out-of-game or logging in outside where the split would be)
  
• If Whosit doesn't accept peace but has a counter-offer, can I log back in and immediately accept the counter-offer (then make the noted tile changes) (I don't think so, but it doesn't hurt to ask)
  

No outside discussion so no to Nr 1.
AFAIK Whosit can only play after you ended turn right? so you wouldn't be able to alter tiles. But else I don't see anything in the rules that forbids you to accept a peaceoffer and act accordingly.

I thought you couldn't log in when it's not your side of the split? That's the only reason I would need to ask out-of-game--to confirm the turn split had ended when I logged back in? If I can log in whenever I want, a lot of the questions are moot.