[SPOILERS!] Grimace and wetbandit hope to stay on their side of the DMZ

[wetbandit]

We should also take america to keep with the resource theme. Even the mapmaker wants us to do that!

[Grimace]

So now that we have the start, what do you REALLY think?

So I guess we should probably shoot for someone with Agriculture or Hunting to start so we don't have to research it before being able to work the corn or pigs.

Do the starting techs come from the leader or the civ?

[wetbandit]

The civ. Coincidentally, Zulu has both agri and hunting. :shh:

I'm limited to phone access now, but any agri or hunt civ is viable. I'll be able to talk later tonight.

[Grimace]

So Agri & Hunt are primary techs...also desirable would be wheel or mining. Fishing and Mysticism can wait.

And actually Hunting would be more desirable. The irrigated corn would give us 5f/1c, but the pastured pigs would give us 5f/1h, and I think the extra hammer would be more useful in the early game. The extra commerce would speak up techs slightly, but I think getting units out faster is a bigger advantage. Thoughts?

So civ choices may be...
- Zulu, Agr/Hun, decent UU, great early UB that does not obsolete.
- Persia, Agr/Hun, good early UU, mediocre UB
- Ethiopia, Hun/Min, excellent UU, decent UB, especially if you can pull off Stonehenge.
- Khmer, Hun/Min, decent UU (if you have ivory), good UB (who wouldn't want +1f?)
- Babylon, Whe/Agr, good defensive UU, good UB
- Ottoman, Whe/Agr, good UU, good UB
- Egypt, Whe/Agr, good early UU, decent UB if you need priests.

Leaders discussed in next post, I gotta run and pick up my car.

[GermanJoey]

the wet corn is a 6f/1c tile

[Grimace]

the wet corn is a 6f/1c tile

Thank you for the correction! I must be thinking of rice, then.

In that case, the difference in benefit is not quite so obvious.

[Grimace]

So thinking about leaders, it's pretty obvious from reading through a lot of the previous PB games that it is basically impossible to play an AI-diplo game that does not have some warring. Therefore at some point it is highly likely we'll end up fighting someone. So I'm thinking we might as well embrace that idea.

Fast expansion also seems to be a critical component to gaining an advantage, so anything that speeds that up helps.

Therefore the first two that immediately come to mind are:
Shaka (Agg/Exp) and
Genghis Khan (Agg/Imp)

Both of them would pair well with the Zulu. Genghis is a warmonger's dream, with the fast GGs and Aggressive benefits. Both of them also help with faster expansion, particularly Imperialistic.

Stalin (Agg/Ind) is another possibility. It appeals to the wonder builder in me.
Hammurabi (Org/Agg) would also be a good one. We get the -25% city maintenance from Agg plus cheap courthouses and reduced civic maintenance.

I find myself unusually interested in going with an aggressive leader, which is not normally the way I play. But I figure I might as well go with it, amiright?

[wetbandit]

Internet down at home, so please forgive possible brevity posting from phone.

I had thought that you might highlight Shaka, ghengis, and Stalin. I only think stalin becomes appealing if we are the only or one of two teams with ind. otherwise, we are giving a lot away by not taking exp imp fin.

With expansive, the first worker will come online in 10 turns (5hammers plus 1bonud hammer) versus 12. This will get the corn hooked up on t15 and grow to size 2 very quickly. We could get ahead on worker turns by building another worker or grow another size for an early settler.
Imp gives us 3 extra hammers for every 5 hammers on a settler. It's imprtant that we try and maximize this bonus and pay attention to the hammer count. I feel that exp is probably better than imp, but not so much more as to advice against it.

I'd add China and Sumeria to the list also. Sumeri a wants an early detour towards religion, which may or may not be preferable. China has good techs and a great uu.

I think an agg Zulu is a strong possibility.

[Grimace]

Internet down at home, so please forgive possible brevity posting from phone.

I had thought that you might highlight Shaka, ghengis, and Stalin. I only think stalin becomes appealing if we are the only or one of two teams with ind. otherwise, we are giving a lot away by not taking exp imp fin.

No problem, stuff happens. I agree that in general Stalin is the least desirable of those four leaders, but I think he becomes more valuable if we wanted to make a run at Stonehenge (since it's pretty much a given we won't have stone) in order to power either Egypt or Ethiopia's early UB.

How do you feel about the Organized trait/Hammurabi?

With expansive, the first worker will come online in 10 turns (5hammers plus 1bonud hammer) versus 12. This will get the corn hooked up on t15 and grow to size 2 very quickly. We could get ahead on worker turns by building another worker or grow another size for an early settler.

Imp gives us 3 extra hammers for every 5 hammers on a settler. It's imprtant that we try and maximize this bonus and pay attention to the hammer count. I feel that exp is probably better than imp, but not so much more as to advice against it.

That does make Exp pretty desirable as it would give us an immediate benefit in the first few turns, allowing us to grow faster than most others (unless Exp becomes very popular, which it may if everyone's start is similar to ours).

I'd add China and Sumeria to the list also. Sumeri a wants an early detour towards religion, which may or may not be preferable. China has good techs and a great uu.

I think an agg Zulu is a strong possibility.

China has (what seems to me, anyway) a pretty crappy UB for MP Civ, though. Culture bonus? Really? I guess if you're dealing with close borders it could matter, but it doesn't seem to give as much of a benefit as a lot of other civs, which is why I left them off the list. They do have a fantastic UU, but is it enough to outweigh their "meh" UB? Especially since Crossbows usually have a fairly narrow window of utility on Normal speed.

Sumeria has a good UU and a decent UB (75% cost courthouse), but why the detour to religion? They start with Agr/Whe, and don't require any religious techs to enable their UU/UB.

[wetbandit]

Re: last post:

The Ziggurat is unlocked at Priesthood, not Code of Laws like regular Courthouses.
I admit I may have an unhealthy appreciation for Cho-ko-nus.

Re: Game Settings

We know that it is a Torusworld script, toroidal 76*28 map. For seven players, that's 304 tiles per player. Speed is Normal and Difficulty is Monarch.

*Mod: RtR
*Snake pick
*Difficulty: Monarach
*Barbs: Yes
*Huts and Events: Yes/No?
*City Trading: Yes/No?
*Ai Diplo

I didn't see a firm consensus on Huts/Events and City Trading. Perhaps I missed it, but neither will impact our pick.

There is also Seven's handy tech cost spreadsheet(to the extent that RtR hasn't modified the base tech cost): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...sp=sharing

Civ Techs:

If we use a Wheel Civ, early pottery is an option. In effect, a worker would make a cottage ahead of a mine for his third improvement. We also open up the chance for an early granary, Given that we are focusing trait discussion on EXP and IMP, I think getting mining earlier makes more sense to mine that grassland,riverside hill for the greater tile yield from a 1/3/1 tile. I'm not ruling out an early-ish pottery, it's just not something I typically do given the strength of BW and slavery, even nerfed.

Agr/Hunt, is the fastest route to BW for us. Hunt/Min or Agri/Min are about two turns behind that, since mining is 15 modified beakers less than Agri or Hunt. A trait synergy with the Civ may be more important than 15 early beakers.