[Spoilers] PBEM 62 - Ichabod's Thread, feat. Mardoc and retep

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

No worries! Rep is great for the instant bonus but does tail off once all your cities are up at their happy cap. Spiritual is nice with the mids definitely. What total happy resources do you have to play with? When do you think you're likely to try to war first?

[Ichabod]

No worries! Rep is great for the instant bonus but does tail off once all your cities are up at their happy cap. Spiritual is nice with the mids definitely. What total happy resources do you have to play with? When do you think you're likely to try to war first?

Regarding happy resources, I have gems and ivory. We can easily settle:










So, that's dyes, spices, whales and sugar. Sugar and spices need calendar, dyes needs IW too and whales need optics. So, yeah, REP and religion are really helping in this regard, because further happy won't be so easy.

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War, I'd say around knights. Probably attack THH, since his lands are easily aggregated into mine, from what I can see. Dazed is another option.

Of course, there's a chance we'll be attacked earlier. Commodore seems the kind of player that won't stay put just waiting for me to win. I just tested the last save to see that someone already knows HBR. It's likely Commodore and I'm pretty sure of it. His power indicates that, since it's spiking:




So, he most likely will attack Pindicator with the HAs and that would really help his position. Pindicator is at 3 cities and has low power, Commodore is at 7 cities and has high power, so I'm worried. Commodore would have two people's worth of land and THH and dazed are fighting each other, so they can't really contest it. If we want to keep with just peaceful expansion until knights, we really need some first to bonuses, otherwise Commodore will surpass us with all the captured land.

The other option that Commodore has is actually attacking us. Thinking of that and knowing about HBR, I started to produce a spearman in Milk, which is currently inly defended by one spear. I can 2-pop whip a lighthouse there next turn, but I'm actually considering 2-pop whipping a spear into another spear and growing again, before whipping the lighthouse. That would make me feel more safe, as 3 spears on a hill could take quite a bit of HAs and I'll have more troops there soon too. I think it's worth delaying the development of a weaker city to make the empire safer as a whole (besides, I want to work cottages with that city, not coast).

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Anyway, THH GNP is so low right now that perhaps a mace + cat attack could work. He probably will have only ancient units for a long time.




But, if I play my cards right, I think I can have Guilds as the same time I don't have more land to peacefully expand to. Than I do a blitz attack, with really powerful units and I take more developed land... Seems fine...

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Nice for the thoughts. THH stopped updating like you pointed out and wow he has tailed off on that last graph like you said. What is your break even sci? Like 20ish bpt?

That's mediocre happy. Whales won't come for ages and the sugar/spices both need further cities. The only calander that you can use right off is jungled. That is a little unlucky. You're right you are a bit low there.

I can't wait to see your war plans. How many more cities are you going to settle now? Earlier you mentioned going for islands? That is still on the cards I take it?

[Ichabod]

Nice for the thoughts. THH stopped updating like you pointed out and wow he has tailed off on that last graph like you said. What is your break even sci? Like 20ish bpt?

That's mediocre happy. Whales won't come for ages and the sugar/spices both need further cities. The only calander that you can use right off is jungled. That is a little unlucky. You're right you are a bit low there.

I can't wait to see your war plans. How many more cities are you going to settle now? Earlier you mentioned going for islands? That is still on the cards I take it?

Thanks for the comments. I'll update properly tomorrow, but just to give a quick answer.

Our breakeven is around 25% science. At 20% we are at 19 bpt and +4 gold, so your guess is pretty accurate.

At 100% gold, we make + 24 gold. At 100% science, we make 96 beakers, -72 gold.

And to share and interesting thing I just found out: Commodore doesn't have Metal Casting, as far as I can tell. He definetely doesn't have currency, because he can't trade gold. So, considering he built the Oracle on turn 47, he probably used it for Mathematics! That's very good news, because this makes him have way less tech than I believed. I have a hard time believing he could reach any of the techs that have maths as a prereq to get from the Oracle. He doesn't have Alphabet, nor Aesthetics, if he had Calendar, I think we'd see a resource already hooked up. Perhaps construction, but why tech HBR then, catapults + anything would be enough to take Pindicator out (since attacking against a stack this early will always have bad odds, so 1-movers + cats are enough).

[Ichabod]

Regarding the happy question, I also have wines, that I forgot to point out.

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I'm already preparing to settle a city here, on the blue square. I want at least 2 spears and 3 workers in position to improve the sheep on the same turn the city is settled + a road on the forest to chop a granary still at size 1. The city won't need a border pop that soon, so i'm not too worried about getting a missionary right when the city is settled.

Alternatively, we could settle the yellow city, to share crabs and get TGLh bonus. The horses would then be used by the foodless gold city. I don't think that's worth it, though. Blue square fits perfectly with Dazed settled city and actually blocks the peninsula for us.

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I'm also preparing to settle a city to the south. I want at least 2 workers to farm the sugar/rice as soon as the city is settled and one worker already chopping a granary, to get it before the city reaches the middle of the food bar. I also want 2 spears for defense.

I'm highly considering blue square to settle this city. The white arrows are the vision Dazed gets from those peaks and I think he wouldn't be able to see the blue city. The blue city is fast and safe and, again, doesn't aggravate Dazed, as far as I can tell. We actually leave the gems to Dazed, even though they are tough to settle (we don't need gems for happy, just for the commerce, they are even weaker considering we'd need IW for them). If we attack Dazed, I'd probably raze that city of his and replant near pigs + gems + copper. Any opinions about this?

Yellow X is also a possibility, that gets TGLh bonus, a hill for defense and pretty much everything that blue square gets, but needs a border pop to have the rice in borders. It's a slower city, perhaps a better one. Dazed will always have an eye on it, I think, and that can be a disadvantage.

I'm still undecided, we'll see what happens.

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I already discussed how to settle this area in a previous post. It's not a top priority right now, since we have other spots coming online soon and we have other things to do still. I'm finishing a chariot in PPM that will explore the area to the south of the mountains. First, it'll explore this area, though:




To see if there's a backfill seafood city to be settled here.

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Speaking of settling cities, we have this one prepared:




The city will have the fish improved on the first turn. The idea is to whip a granary, than a lighthouse, while trying to ferry a missionary for culture + OR bonus. After that, probably whip anotehr WB and... probably consider whipping more, perhaps into Moai (mostly because I really don't see a better place to get Moai than here).

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Some domestic micro:

*We whipped IB, because it grew into an unimproved tile. We have workers on the red circles cottaging, so the plan is to grow the city to size 10, working 3 resources, 5 cottages and 2 scientists (everytime we'd work an unimproved tile, I switch to a scientist, but if we have a cottage to grow into, I prefer that, to grow the city to the happy cap). I'm thinking of getting a great scientist from here to place an Academy in the Capital. After that, probably whip the city into whatever is needed and then grow again... We'll see.




*I thought a lot about what to do here. I could 2-pop whip a lighthouse or the spear. What I decided to do is not whip for another turn and work the forest, to put the spear at 3/23, 1-pop whip reach. Next turn, I'll 2-pop whip the lighthouse and, if Commodore shows in the interturn, we can at least 1-pop whip the spear from size 2 to 1. If we had whipped the city to size 2 this turn, we'd lose a cottage turn somewhere, because EG would have to gice some of its cottages to other cities.




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This is the only graph that worries me:




We scrambled all our defenses towards THH, so our eastern flank is more insecure. I have one spear in milk, with the possibility of whipping 1 more and I have another one coming from elsewhere in the empire, but that'll still take a bit. I have also a chariot almost ready that could pile there.

I've said that Commodore has HBR and I still believe this. HBR is a 10k power tech, maths is 6k power, archery is 6k. That's 22k power: Commodore is at 130k and I'm at 95k, so he can't have that many HAs (which are 6k a piece). So, I think we are safe for now and we are getting ready to be safer in the future (we desperately need culture in Milk).




Anyway, that's the beauty of the city of Milk. It's on a choke point, on a hill, with great possibility of vision. It just shares improvements with the Capital, so it's not the end of the worls if it's razed. Very good!

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Other graphs, the happier ones (posting them because I have vision on everyone):

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Overview:







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Demographics (eot):

[Mardoc]

I'm already preparing to settle a city here, on the blue square. I want at least 2 spears and 3 workers in position to improve the sheep on the same turn the city is settled + a road on the forest to chop a granary still at size 1. The city won't need a border pop that soon, so i'm not too worried about getting a missionary right when the city is settled.

Alternatively, we could settle the yellow city, to share crabs and get TGLh bonus. The horses would then be used by the foodless gold city. I don't think that's worth it, though. Blue square fits perfectly with Dazed settled city and actually blocks the peninsula for us.

With the attention to defense, it makes sense to me. We can afford to wait a couple turns for a missionary, but don't wait too long. Need some cultural control for defense.

I'm highly considering blue square to settle this city. The white arrows are the vision Dazed gets from those peaks and I think he wouldn't be able to see the blue city. The blue city is fast and safe and, again, doesn't aggravate Dazed, as far as I can tell. We actually leave the gems to Dazed, even though they are tough to settle (we don't need gems for happy, just for the commerce, they are even weaker considering we'd need IW for them). If we attack Dazed, I'd probably raze that city of his and replant near pigs + gems + copper. [b]Any opinions about this?[/b

Yellow X is also a possibility, that gets TGLh bonus, a hill for defense and pretty much everything that blue square gets, but needs a border pop to have the rice in borders. It's a slower city, perhaps a better one. Dazed will always have an eye on it, I think, and that can be a disadvantage.

I'm still undecided, we'll see what happens.

I agree about not pushing too hard against Dazed quite yet. I like the red X better in a vacuum, but it seems too risky when we're already ahead and need to spend some time pushing the snowball in peace.

We'll want the gems eventually - but we don't want to fight Egypt in the ancient era anyway. Agreed on raze/resettle, whenever we get around to that part of the world.

I think Dazed seeing the yellow X city would be an advantage, not a disadvantage. Show him 2 spears/1 axe fortified on a hill behind a river with some culture, and he won't want to risk attacking. Show him just advancing white borders, and he might think he can do something about it.

I'd be happy with either city, though. The most important thing is to get them settled with adequate garrisons and growing culture, to get the Dazed border locked down.

*We whipped IB, because it grew into an unimproved tile. We have workers on the red circles cottaging, so the plan is to grow the city to size 10, working 3 resources, 5 cottages and 2 scientists (everytime we'd work an unimproved tile, I switch to a scientist, but if we have a cottage to grow into, I prefer that, to grow the city to the happy cap). I'm thinking of getting a great scientist from here to place an Academy in the Capital. After that, probably whip the city into whatever is needed and then grow again... We'll see.

Sounds good. It should be a very nice commerce city with a little time.

I've said that Commodore has HBR and I still believe this. HBR is a 10k power tech, maths is 6k power, archery is 6k. That's 22k power: Commodore is at 130k and I'm at 95k, so he can't have that many HAs (which are 6k a piece). So, I think we are safe for now and we are getting ready to be safer in the future (we desperately need culture in Milk).

Hmm, it does look like Commodore's going to hit someone, yes. And knowing him, it's probably 50/50 us vs Pindicator; depends on whether he thinks there's enough profit in hitting Pindi.

We should consider going for Construction next, instead of Currency. Show Commodore a catapult and I'm 90% confident he doesn't attack. Maybe we can manage safety with just a bunch of units and culture, though.

[Ichabod]

So, I was really (and I mean it) nervous when opening the save yesterday, thinking that Commodore would attack. So, I stopped and thought about it a bit - why would I be nervous? I can very well not win the game if Commodore attacked now, but so what? I think I played a good game until now and I'm proud of it, so why would it change so much if I end up not winning, so as to make me nervous when faced with (the expectation of) that possibility. Sometimes, I wonder about things like that.

Anyway, on game related news, I just finished Mathematics. What will I tech next?

I think i'll save gold for quite a bit. Why? I have a GP coming from LS, from the Mids + scientists that i'm about to run there. I'll save gold until I get that GP. If I get a GS, I use it to get an academy and burn through all the saved gold with a very good modifier in my biggest commerce city. If it's a GEng, I think I'll go for Calendar, in order to rush the MoM (a tech that I wouldn't consider so early without nearly assured MoM).

While I'm saving gold, I'll tech archery with REP beakers.

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My planned tech path right now is Civil Service through Currency and CoL -> Guilds. I'm considering detours to Literature and perhaps and earlier than expected MC, if there's any interest in Colossus (I think that, similar to TGLh, there won't be much interest from other players in the Colossus, so perhaps we can delay that -> I'd expect Commodore to go for MC if Colossus was a good build for him).

We'll probably need some utility techs too, like Construction and Calendar, somewhere along the way...

[Mardoc]

Good news: Commodore's not warring against us

Bad news: I'm pretty sure Pindicator had another city last turn.

Good news: I don't see that city on Commodore's list. And we're still 2 cities ahead of Commodore.

[Ichabod]

Good news: Commodore's not warring against us

Bad news: I'm pretty sure Pindicator had another city last turn.

Good news: I don't see that city on Commodore's list. And we're still 2 cities ahead of Commodore.

Yup, I noticed that while taking a look at the save. Commodore's power remains the same, as far as I can see, so Pindicator probably evacuated his city. I wonder why Commodore didn't keep it...

We are close to being very safe from Commodore, on the other hand. With a missionary coming for Milk, soon to be 4 spears in the city + archery tech, we are good to go.

The economy is really good too. Capital will soon be size 11 (the larger opponent city is size 7), with a library and perhaps an Academy (the other option is a GEng, which is also nice). IB is the second biggest city in the world and will soon be at size 10. We get ~35 gold at 100% gold, with 15 beakers from scientists and we still don't have currency (nor are we working too many scientists). We are about to have religion in every city, but one (including the island city, which will get an enormous boost from religion - and I think we can get a very easy Moai there). And, as fas as I can see, our opponents aren't so hot regarding cottages.

City 10 will come soon (it's not worth to whip OT, because the workers won't be reasy in time for a city 1t sooner), city 11 isn't too far back. After that, we can focus on settling towards the East (with a lot of defenses) and some more islands (for TGLh, perhaps). I think we'll have about 16 cities when we are ready to war.

Anyway, I'll do a proper report tomorrow, but I'm starting to get pretty confident. It won't be long until we have guilds and we can revolt to Police State and Vassalage, build knights and double our lands. THH land is really beautiful, by the way.

[Ichabod]

I'm teching archery with REP beakers only. I will do the same with Medi and Priesthood, to get another prereq bonus for CoL and Monarchy (needed for Feudalism and guilds), and get access to temples and monasteries (I think they are a decent build in cities like EG and IB, with lots of commerce and that need the happiness).