(October 30th, 2014, 14:12)GermanJojo Wrote: Haram, do you mean Suleiman, not Mehmed? You were talking about Imp, and Suleiman is Phi/Imp, while Mehmed is Exp/Org. Suleiman is my dear friend, one of my favorite (and in my opinion, #1 most fun) restricted SP leaders, I know him very well. I'm always very sad to see the RB community looking down on him, so I'd love to see someone lead him to victory... edit: although then again, you were talking about HRE, so maybe you meant Mehmed after all, and thought he was Org/Imp for a moment?
Well, maybe I was not very clear with my arguments, thank you GJ I indeed thought about Mehmet (ORG/EXP), because going religion you delay BW and cannot use IMP trait so effectively.
AGG lends itself to the land grab in both economically and militarily. Less cost through city maintenance is good, defending these far-flung cities with relatively fewer, stronger units is a buff too. And the meta is helpful. No one really wants to fight the AGG civ until later in the game when the relative strength of the free combat1 promotion is less decisive. Typically the idea is to out-tech the AGG guy and beat him with better units later. IMP/AGG can counteract this with just having more land (cottages, free hammers into wealth, etc) to keep up in tech. This could be a very strong combo.
IND is not necessarily a wonder-first strategy, although you can get boxed into thinking that way because the temptation is so strong. The big benefit with IND with the nerf to whipping is to get forges in play sooner at a more reasonable cost. Metal Casting has been discounted so it is cheaper to tech to MC even without an Oracle slingshot. This coincides nicely in my view with a Caste/workshop economy. Despite this, I still rate IND behind ORG and IMP, and less interesting to me personally at this point than AGG, which I still have not played in RtR. That said, the balance is so good that I'm up for most traits. It really depends on what you guys want to do.
BGN suggested I just post our entire chat for you all to see in case anyone's interested, so here goes:
Caledorn
I really appreciate your detailed posts in the thread! I am sitting contemplating civs and leaders right now.
We should make a RtR wiki.
BGN
it looks like hunting is the same cost as agriculture/the wheel now. 78b in your sandbox
so krill's sheet needs to be updated
Caledorn
Yeah, that's what I discovered too
BGN
so if you take hunting you aren't "losing" any free beakers
you don't really need agriculture
Caledorn
What do you think about FDR as leader? Ind/org
BGN
the old FDR is Mr. GLH. no need for GLH most likely on this map, unless krill did some edits to make naval warfare more useful.
but, I LOVE forges
Caledorn
Yeah, and I like the idea of running Caste instead of Slavery with forges
BGN
i think i've built two more granaries than forges in PB18, despite the massive upfront cost
Caledorn
It sounds quite fun. FDR of Germany would be funny, just because.
BGN
germany may be improved but, for example, in PB18 we havent' reached cannons yet and we ahve several people elimintaed and many others not in contention. i don't think taht UU is decisive enough and teh UB still is very late
Caledorn
Yeah, it was just for the RL laughs
Ethiopia, Khmer, Russia and Germany starts with hunting/mining
BGN
not an inspring gropu
Caledorn
Mongolia has hunting/wheel
BGN
Russia is about to be fun in pb18 but hasn't delivered a lot of juice to the game so far and we're 150 turns in
Caledorn
No. Not at all. But your suggested start is very nice. Going straight for BW would be nice
But an alternative is to go with Hunting/Mysticism and attempt to get a religion
BGN
we could possibly do that bc we don't need a lot of worker techs at the start
possibly even avoiding the wheel if city #2 is able to hook up trade along a river within the borders, which is plausible
Caledorn
Aztecs are hunt/myst. Yum.
BGN
i doubt anyone is going to rush in this game. the map will be fair enough taht a rush won't be required and folks are going to want a good economic tutorial, which in my mind discourages the likelihood of wanting to rush
Caledorn
And HRE! Oooh
BGN
IMP/ORG HRE?
i should look at the changelog for the new version
be back in a few mintues
Caledorn
Yeah, I agree. I will be wary of anyone picking Rome though. Krill beefed up the prats
11.9 attack for a CR1 praet against a city is just nasty
Caesar of HRE would be a neat combo to try
I made a post in the thread while you're off reading. Getting up thread interest is also important, so I mostly just posted a lot of what we've already talked about, but it's nice for the other team members and the lurkers to see what we're discussing too
BGN
you can just dump the chat log if you want. some people read it.
i think some of the concern about bankrupting the economy can be mitigated based on the geography of the capital.
we have lots of good riverside to put cottages on, as well as at least one happy resource (Ivory) that itself provides a little bit of commerce, as well as allowing additional cottages. not bankrupting is a lot easier when you aren't whipping for units/workers/settlers as much too.
and, huts.
Caledorn
Oooh! We're getting lots of lurker activity now
BGN
feels good, right?
Caledorn
Yeah, I'm loving this!
One serious option to consider is actually IMP/AGG Zulu.
Your suggestion for traits combined with Zulu could be a powerhouse for sure
BGN
Zulu may well be gone before we get there. folks know how good it is.
Caledorn
Yeah, 2 others will pick before us. 1st pick was Vikings
BGN
HRE is a good option too, but then we probably don't want AGG
Caledorn
Agreed. It seems a bit counter-productive to have agg hre
BGN
at some point if you keep buffing the same trait it becomes relatively less effective per buff
ORG/AGG Zulu w/ Ikhanda for instance. each discount provides less actual benefit despite the % staying the same
IMP/ORG is, I think, mackoti's drug of choice for this mod.
you get SO many free hammers, and you get them sooner.
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. - Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N. Declaration of Rights"
(October 30th, 2014, 14:12)GermanJojo Wrote: Haram, do you mean Suleiman, not Mehmed? You were talking about Imp, and Suleiman is Phi/Imp, while Mehmed is Exp/Org. Suleiman is my dear friend, one of my favorite (and in my opinion, #1 most fun) restricted SP leaders, I know him very well. I'm always very sad to see the RB community looking down on him, so I'd love to see someone lead him to victory... edit: although then again, you were talking about HRE, so maybe you meant Mehmed after all, and thought he was Org/Imp for a moment?
Also, I may be mistaken with how Agg works, but I think Zulu paired with Agg gives 1 - 0.8*0.75 = -40% maintenance in cities with Ikhanda. My understanding is the Agg discount is multiplicative with building discounts.
What is the current implementation of PHI for this game? I think there was some discussion about modifying the trait from the version that I am familiar with in PB18 (2.0.6.4). The 150% bonus is very nice. Early academies are good and can be parlayed into some first-to bonuses if played properly. There is also the potential for an early GE if you prioritize MC for forges. Late 'Mids? You have options.
(October 30th, 2014, 15:20)Boldly Going Nowhere Wrote: What is the current implementation of PHI for this game? I think there was some discussion about modifying the trait from the version that I am familiar with in PB18 (2.0.6.4). The 150% bonus is very nice. Early academies are good and can be parlayed into some first-to bonuses if played properly. There is also the potential for an early GE if you prioritize MC for forges. Late 'Mids? You have options.
I believe Phi is the same here as it is in PB18 and PB22.
So, we're up, and should probably make our pick within a few hours to not hold up the snake.
These are the leaders and civs that I am contemplating, after conferring with both plako and BGN:
Leaders
Julius Caesar (IMP/ORG) - This would be a great leader to play for the synergy between the two traits in that we can build a lot of cities fast, and if we get either HRE or Sumer that could be a strong synergy too. Aztecs is also a possibility, but plako has stated he doesn't care much for the Aztecs, and the SAs more or less force us into (ab)using Slavery for whips as much as possible if we pick them, which is tbh not my favourite tactic. BGN also thinks mackoti will definitely be headed for Julius, so that's an additional reason to pick him.
Genghis (IMP/AGG) - Both strong and solid traits. Beefed up cheap barracks, and the ability to REX to build production centers for units we then introduce in a friendly manner to our neighbours can't be wrong.
Suleiman (IMP/PHI) - Interesting synergy in that we can REX up quickly to gain control of many cities, which will (most likely on a torusland map) give us at least one good spot for a dedicated GP city. That in turn will be a good fuel for both chaining GA's (especially if we dedicate to getting MoM), and bulbing critical techs along the way.
Frederick (PHI/ORG) - Basically the same synergy as Suleiman above, just that we get lower maintenance on our cities quicker, but will expand a bit slower.
Roosevelt (ORG/IND) - Not so much interesting for the wonder build bonus (although an added nice bonus), but for the forges, which is one of my favourite buildings (also one of BGN's) because it gives a nice bonus to hammers that is never ever wrong.
Civs
HRE - Starts with Hunting and Mysticism, so gives us good starting techs, we get the Rathaus which is an excellent UB, but more or less locks us to the idea that we need an ORG leader to fully benefit. The UU is adequate.
Russia - Starts with Hunting and Mining, so great starting techs. The UB/UU are both powerful, but come late in the game. On the other hand, we wouldn't be locked to the idea of one specific trait to fully use the potential of Russia - we just need to be powerful when the late game comes around.
Sumeria - Starts with Agriculture and the Wheel, so not the best starting techs, but as plako tells me in chat that is not of crucial importance. We would have to research hunting as our first tech. However, the vulture is a nice unit at str 6, with 25% bonus vs melee units (which could be very nice if we get Rome as our neighbour...) - but also synergises well with ORG due to the Ziggurats.
Ethiopia - Starts with Hunting and Mining, so again great starting techs. The UB is not bad, and the UU is also decent if we don't land an early religion. Not a first choice pick for civ though.
Celtia - Starts with Hunting and Mysticism, so good starting techs. Adequate UU, but not as good as the Praetorians of Rome. Interesting UB, but probably best paired with an AGG leader. Also not a first choice pick for civ.
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. - Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N. Declaration of Rights"
(October 31st, 2014, 14:40)plako Wrote: Mystisicm is bad starting tech. Only useful, if you really want early religion.
Yeah, we were discussing the possibility of getting an early religion, which is the only reason it's even mentioned as a good tech.
What do you think about picking leader first, and then picking civ on the 2nd pick?
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. - Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N. Declaration of Rights"
I've sat down and made a list of Civs that I think are possible (not all of them necessarily good) candidates. I think it would be wise if we try to pick a rank of these Civs as soon as possible, so we actually know what to pick when it's our turn in the snake again.
Russia (Ideal start techs, strong UU/UB - but will not shine until late game)
Hunting / Mining
Cossack (Cav) - 15 Str, no defensive bonuses, 30% withdraw chance, +50% vs cannon and mounted units, flanks cats, trebs & cannon
Research Institute (Uni) - +3 cul, +25% sci, +1 free scientist - 200h
Khmer (Ideal start techs, uncertain of usefulness of UU/UB)
Hunting / Mining
Ballista Elephant (WE) - 7 Str, no defensive bonuses, +50% vs mounted, targets mounted units first
Baray (Aqueduct) - +2h, +1f - 100h
Mongolia (Good start techs, nice UU/UB)
Hunting / The Wheel
Keshik (HA) - 6 Str, 1 first strike, no defensive bonuses, ignores terrain move cost, 20% withdraw chance, +50% vs cats, flanks cats & trebs
Ger (Stable) - +4xp to mounted - 60h
Mali (Okay start techs, uncertain about usefulness of UU, nice UB)
Mining / The Wheel
Skirmisher (Archer) - 4 Str, 1-2 first strikes, +50% city defense, +25% hill defense, +30% def vs swordsmen
Mint (Forge) - +1 unhealth, +25% hammers, +10% com, +1happy from gems, gold, silver - 120h
Ethiopia (Ideal start techs, uncertain about usefulness of UB/UU)
Hunting / Mining
Oromo Warrior - 9 Str, 1 first strike, immune to first strike, Drill I & II promos
Stele (Monument) - +1 cul, +25% cul - 30h
HRE (Strong ORG synergy, not ideal start tech)
Hunting / Mysticism
Landsknecht (Pike) - 6 Str, +100% vs mounted & melee units
Rathaus (Courthouse) - +2 esp, -75% maintenance, +1 spy slot - 120h
Sumeria (Noted for the Vulture as a good anti-praet unit in the open, in addition to the ORG synergy, not ideal start tech)
The Wheel / Agri
Vulture (Axe) - 6 Str, +25% vs melee
Ziggurat (Courthouse) - +2 esp, -50% maintenance, +1 spy slot - 90h - prereq Priesthood instead of CoL
I consider The Wheel a good start tech for us in addition to Hunting and Mining, as it costs the same, and we need it for Pottery.
I suspect most of you already knew this, but I still took the time to write it up here just as a quick reference so that you can see at first sight what the civs give us, without having to look up the changelog or go into the game to just remind yourself.
Also, I have not ranked these civs as of yet. Russia comes high on the list of my likes, even with the late game UU/UB - but I would like to know what you others think before we make a decision. The fact that Rome was picked makes me a bit uncomfortable, as if we get a warmongering (against us) Rome as our neigbour, we're going to have some problems. We absolutely have to kill praets in the open, and not let them start attacking any of our cities (With CR1 they are 11.9 attack vs a city, which is painful so early!), so in that case Construction becomes a high priority for us so we get cats that we can put into the field to kill them off with axes.
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. - Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N. Declaration of Rights"
I'm always very sad to see the RB community looking down on him, so I'd love to see someone lead him to victory... edit: although then again, you were talking about HRE, so maybe you meant Mehmed after all, and thought he was Org/Imp for a moment?
