{SPOILERS} 2metra, Dreylin & OT4E. This is the beginning of a wonderful friendship.

[OT4E]

Dont promote before you need promotion.

Agree for the Axe, but should we get Dolly to WoodsII (and healed) ASAP so she can keep moving?

Sure.

[Dreylin]

Back of the envelope calcs:

Once city 2 is founded we will have 6 forests in borders that will contribute the full 30h to Maryland (what I'm planning to call Colossus city). There is the "?" forest that will probably give 24h (need to confirm) and an 8th forest S of the Sheep that won't be in borders, but will contribute it's chop to the right city.

5full forests +17h of overflow/production will complete the Colossus in a single turn.

16h overflow means either:
1pop whip at ~105/120h into Forge
2pop whip at ~85/120h into Forge

Assuming both partial forests give 24h, they and the remaining full forest would give us 78h, which is in the right ballpark.

Problems to solve:
Growing Maryland to size4 in time
Having 5 Workers available do the chops
Having pre-chopped many of the forests

[Dreylin]

Whip unhappy has now faded from 54 so there's room to grow again. It will finish the current Settler in 2t with 0 overflow, but will be another ~2t from being able to regain the Corn from Bodmin. The turn after the Settler is produced a chop will complete from under the new city site for 24h (3tiles from City).

We can follow the Settler with a Worker, which will complete in 2t ((24*1.35 =) 32 + (2x14 =) 28) = 60fh; then we grab the Corn and grow on a unit (my preference would be an Axe since we already have a Spear in production at Samarkand), switch to Settler once growth is complete and then (probably) 2-pop whip the Settler and finish the unit while regrowing.

Alternatively we could move straight onto the next Settler with the chop and then 1Pop whip down to size4 and grow back with the Corn. Since we're saving the Forests at both the Cap and new city site, I think the 5 Workers we have will probably be sufficient.

Or, we put the chop into a Granary; 1t of production should let us 1pop whip it to completion the following turn. Grab the Corn back and grow to size 5 filling the Granary, then Settler-Worker or vice versa.

So many choices; guess I'd better try to get my sandbox up to date tonight.

[OT4E]

Overflow from slaving forge is calculated in a weird way and results in loss of hammers.

Imho the best way is to chop forge in 1 turn, then put some raw hammers of production into Colossus. It will give us time to perform other chops, but need to think about worker logistics also. 3+3 or 3+4 of chops seems to be realistic.

[Dreylin]

Overflow from slaving forge is calculated in a weird way and results in loss of hammers.

Imho the best way is to chop forge in 1 turn, then put some raw hammers of production into Colossus. It will give us time to perform other chops, but need to think about worker logistics also. 3+3 or 3+4 of chops seems to be realistic.

Is that because it backs out the Forge bonus from the overflow even though that bonus didn't apply to the build itself? Wow, that's something I never knew!

And I've just realised that I forgot to account for the Forge bonus when working out the Colossus costs! So actually 5 forests is more than enough to complete it in 1t.

[OT4E]

Is that because it backs out the Forge bonus from the overflow even though that bonus didn't apply to the build itself? Wow, that's something I never knew!

Yes, exactly.

And I've just realised that I forgot to account for the Forge bonus when working out the Colossus costs! So actually 5 forests is more than enough to complete it in 1t.

Good, but we have:
- 4 first circle forests (30h)
- 4 second circle forests (30h)
- 1 diagonal (24h)
2 forests are coming from Cap which we desire to save for HG. Diagonal one you want to chop into granary, I agree it must be enough to finish it with just one whip.

120 hammers for forge (2 forests + big overflow + 1 whip)
143 hammers for Colossus (4 turns of production + 4 forests)

Growth dynamics:
5 turns to grow to 2 ---> slave
4 turns to grow to 2 again
3 turns to grow to 3 (2 if we make pasture on the hill sheep from cap)
3 turns to grow to 4
22+22+13+14=71 food total
So 15 turns considering we make pasture at the turn we found city or the turn after.

Last time I checked it was 10 turns till Metal Casting, but we have coins for 9 only as far as I remember. But library and scientists must give lacking beakers.

[Dreylin]

Good, but we have:
- 4 first circle forests (30h)
- 4 second circle forests (30h)
- 1 diagonal (24h)
2 forests are coming from Cap which we desire to save for HG. Diagonal one you want to chop into granary, I agree it must be enough to finish it with just one whip.

Growth dynamics:
5 turns to grow to 2 ---> slave
4 turns to grow to 2 again
3 turns to grow to 3 (2 if we make pasture on the hill sheep from cap)
3 turns to grow to 4
22+22+13+14=71 food total
So 15 turns considering we make pasture at the turn we found city or the turn after.

Actually the Sheep at the Cap has already been converted; it has the same f/h output, but +1c so I did that recently when we had Worker turns available.

Also, one of the 2nd-ring forests is likely to not be in borders when we need to chop; I thought that reduces the output?

Last time I checked it was 10 turns till Metal Casting, but we have coins for 9 only as far as I remember. But library and scientists must give lacking beakers.

Something like that. We'll get a good overflow from Maths, but I think our costs may also have grown (and certainly will once the new city gets planted).

Starting to sound like we're better saving that forest, skipping the Granary and just planning on a 1pop whip of the Forge.

[OT4E]

Also, one of the 2nd-ring forests is likely to not be in borders when we need to chop; I thought that reduces the output?

Yes, it gives even less than diagonal. 20H I think.

I have a bad habit to edit post I write if it is still last in the thread.

Starting to sound like we're better saving that forest, skipping the Granary and just planning on a 1pop whip of the Forge.

Growth to 3 without granary will take 9 turns.

[Dreylin]

Also, one of the 2nd-ring forests is likely to not be in borders when we need to chop; I thought that reduces the output?

Yes, it gives even less than diagonal. 20H I think.

I have a bad habit to edit post I write if it is still last in the thread.

Heh, I caught that a couple of times now, so am watching!

I guess that realistically the only way we get that forest in borders in a timely manner would be to use the first pop point to whip out a Monument. That would definitely commit us to just 1pop whip of Forge, but it would also grab us the Crabs in the event we missed the Colossus. We could also (probably) still ship the first or second WB down from Los Millares to hook up the Crabs by the time of that border pop.

[OT4E]

I guess that realistically the only way we get that forest in borders in a timely manner would be to use the first pop point to whip out a Monument. That would definitely commit us to just 1pop whip of Forge, but it would also grab us the Crabs in the event we missed the Colossus. We could also (probably) still ship the first or second WB down from Los Millares to hook up the Crabs by the time of that border pop.

Whip monument to save 10 hammers? City with forge doesnt need monument to expand borders I believe...
Let's use what we have. If you have moved worker on the diagonal forest then let's stick to the plan we chop it into something.